The Illinois Saga Just Keeps Getting Better

As you are equating elected versus appointed to be the same wouldn't the laws of the land requiring such signature be applicable in either case? Under laws (that have been in place since 1866) it states that "It shall be the duty of the executive of the State from which any Senator has been chosen to certify his election, under the seal of the State, to the President of the Senate of the United States." and that "The certificate mentioned in section 1a of this title shall be countersigned by the secretary of state of the State."

Furthermore, the case you reference (Powell v McCormack) was concerning a duly elected/appointed member with the appropriate credentials, properly endorsed as required, being excluded and not a case of an appointed member without the appropriately endorsed credentials. Herein lies the difference, at least for me.

Now back to White, how does he justify not signing the appointment commission when Illinois statute specifically states within the Secretary of State Act that "It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State:
1. To countersign and affix the seal of state to all commissions required by law to be issued by the Governor."?
There are a bunch of different technical issues here that are overlapping each other. So keeping them separate and dealing with each, while not giving the wrong impression of what someone is actually saying isn't easy.

First, I didn't claim to have a definitive opinion on whether or not the Senate's rules (or even US Code) require the state's SOState to certify the appointment. I merely pointed out that the veracity of a statemnt that they do, is in doubt.

Second, although I haven't read enough of the pertinent US Code to say with confidence that there is not such a rule, I do, at this moment believe that there is not. The code section to which you refer is to certify an election. That is indeed a very different animal than an appointment, in as far as its need to be certified. It is very reasonable that legislatures might mandate that an election be certified, but not mandate the same for an appointment. Why, is a different matter that can be addressed separately. Regardless, laws are what they say, and that section of code doesn't say anything about certifying a letter of appointment. Sometimes a court does interpret a statute in a broadening way, but generally they are just interpreting what the words actually mean - not expanding on a general principle referred to by the statute, as they might do with the Constitution. Could that section of US Code, in theory, be interpreted to apply to letters that appoint Senators? Yes - that is why I referenced the statement as 'dubious', as opposed to 'wrong'.

Third, as far as the Powell decision goes, as you no doubt saw, it is an exploration of a great many nuances. Picking out one specific passage to illustrate the interpretive effect of the opinion is not easy, and can never completely express the meaning of their ruling. That being said, I refer to this statement from their conclusion:

Therefore, we hold that, since (Adam Clayton Powell, Jr.), was duly elected by the voters of the (18th Congressional District of New York) and was not ineligible to serve under any provision of the Constitution, the (House) was without power to exclude him from its membership.
The passages in parenthesis are case specific, but the import of a SCOTUS ruling is that it is the precedent by which other cases are decided. Reading this simple statement from the Court, it is clear what the precedent is.

If someone meets these two technical conditions,

(1) they were duly elected by their constituents, and,
(2) they are not ineligible to serve under provisions of the Constitution; then

Congress is without power to exclude them.

Examining the two conditions is a different story. But briefly - I've seen no one assert that he didn't meet (2). The only one that could possibly be questioned is (1). As I've said earlier, reading Illinois law and the declarations of various legal entities in Illinois, he seems to be duly and validly appointed. I don't see anyone in the legal community disputing that.

So, we have just the question of whether or not SCOTUS' ruling would apply to appointments, as well as elections. Certainly someone could argue that it doesn't, but I firmly believe that it does. For one, the distinction between election and appointment is trivial in regard to the principle expressed in this SCOTUS ruling - that being that Congress does not have the right to put conditions on the inclusion of its members. That power (or lack thereof), and its relationship to the wording of the Constitution, would not seem to be affected by the distinction between elected and appointed. The fundamental principle is still of import - Congress (the federal government) has no right to condition whom a state may choose, through the state's statutory processes, to represent that state. That is the right of the state, except as it is restricted by the Constitution and the interpretations thereof. To me, this isn't an issue of Burris' rights, it is an issue of Illinois' (i.e. state's) rights.

I can appreciate that someone might conclude that making the state do a specific kind of paperwork is not placing conditions on the state's rights. But, in the strictest sense it is. It, in and of itself, is not a big deal - but if we give Congress such 'conditioning' authority, what other conditions might they seek to impose? No matter my opinion on that, the point still remains that SCOTUS has decided that they don't have ANY conditioning authority; so, unless and until the Court modifies or further defines that limitation, I don't believe they have the right to make any additional conditions.

One more note on this line of thought, that is to address the seemingly contrary arguments about the interchangeability between election and appointment found in my arguments above. In one instance it is in codified law, and in the other it is in a SCOTUS opinion. The natures of those instruments are very different. A SCOTUS opinion is meant to be a guide used to rule on other cases, in which similar fundamental principles are in question. The specifics of the particular case before SCOTUS are used to give insight into how courts should resolve generally similar cases, with different specific details. Accordingly, the Court's opinions are worded in the expectation that they will be used in that way. They just can't answer every specific question that will ever be in dispute. On the other hand, the law is meant to be the law. It is meant to address much more specific acts and to make, by inclusion or exclusion, distinctions between different acts as being legal or illegal. Furthermore, I can't see reasons why the distinction would be meaningful in the context of the Powell decision, but I can see reason why the distinction would matter in the context of the need for the US Code in question.

As I said, there are many different, subtle issues in this situation. Some of the links in the logic chain that dictates right from wrong are certainly open to variant interpretations. In this thread, and the other, I have merely offered my considered opinions on some of them. I don't presume to be precisely correct. The power to be definition-ally correct lies only with the U.S. Supreme Court.

Boy, that was a whole bunch of rambling, I'll answer the last question in a subsequent post.
 
Now back to White, how does he justify not signing the appointment commission when Illinois statute specifically states within the Secretary of State Act that "It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State:
1. To countersign and affix the seal of state to all commissions required by law to be issued by the Governor."?
His argument hinges on the words, 'commissions required by law to be issued by the Governor'. He claims he only has a duty to sign and seal those 'commissions' which the law specifically says the Governor must issue.

He is drawing a distinction between a commission and other legal acts - implying that the use of the word in this particular statute is a specific description of actions, as opposed to a general one. He points out that, in some sections of Illinois law, the Governor is specifically required to issue a commission; whereas, in other sections he is merely required to perform some other act, such as an appointment.

He argues, that in those other cases, he has no duty to sign and stamp the document that effectuated the action. He says that it is Section 305/5(2) that dictates what he must do in regard to appointments (i.e. to register them), and he has met that duty.

So, in short the question centers around a specific interpretation of the word 'commission', versus a general one. I don't have a strong opinion either way, because I haven't spent any time considering the technical points of the debate. If anything, I lean in the direction that White is wrong, and that he does have a statutory duty to sign the document that appointed Burris.

Of note, there has been a flurry of filings before the Illinois Supreme Court, since White's filing yesterday. The Cook County bar asked for permission to weigh in, Burris' filed a response to Whites' filing, and then White filed another response (that is an 'Objection to Petitioners' Motion for Leave to File Reply in Support of Their Motion for Leave to File a Complaint for Writ of Mandamus' :lmao:).
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
His argument hinges on the words, 'commissions required by law to be issued by the Governor'. He claims he only has a duty to sign and seal those 'commissions' which the law specifically says the Governor must issue.

He is drawing a distinction between a commission and other legal acts - implying that the use of the word in this particular statute is a specific description of actions, as opposed to a general one. He points out that, in some sections of Illinois law, the Governor is specifically required to issue a commission; whereas, in other sections he is merely required to perform some other act, such as an appointment.

He argues, that in those other cases, he has no duty to sign and stamp the document that effectuated the action. He says that it is Section 305/5(2) that dictates what he must do in regard to appointments (i.e. to register them), and he has met that duty.

So, in short the question centers around a specific interpretation of the word 'commission', versus a general one. I don't have a strong opinion either way, because I haven't spent any time considering the technical points of the debate. If anything, I lean in the direction that White is wrong, and that he does have a statutory duty to sign the document that appointed Burris.

Of note, there has been a flurry of filings before the Illinois Supreme Court, since White's filing yesterday. The Cook County bar asked for permission to weigh in, Burris' filed a response to Whites' filing, and then White filed another response (that is an 'Objection to Petitioners' Motion for Leave to File Reply in Support of Their Motion for Leave to File a Complaint for Writ of Mandamus' :lmao:).
While the statute in question does not define "commission" as opposed to "appointment," the two terms are consistent. There is already precedent on this matter in Illinois. In People ex rel. Ewing v. Forquer, 1 Ill. 104, 1825 WL 1467 (Ill. 1825), one of the only cases interpreting a Secretary of State's obligations with regard to gubernatorial appointments, the Court used the term "commission" to refer to the document making the "appointment". This is consistent with a plain reading of the two sections of the law which are at issue in the Burris suit. Commissions must be certified (305/5(1)) and the appointments reflected in the commissions also registered (305/5(2)) The two are not mutually exclusive and should not be read that way.
 

cwo_ghwebb

No Use for Donk Twits
While the statute in question does not define "commission" as opposed to "appointment," the two terms are consistent. There is already precedent on this matter in Illinois. In People ex rel. Ewing v. Forquer, 1 Ill. 104, 1825 WL 1467 (Ill. 1825), one of the only cases interpreting a Secretary of State's obligations with regard to gubernatorial appointments, the Court used the term "commission" to refer to the document making the "appointment". This is consistent with a plain reading of the two sections of the law which are at issue in the Burris suit. Commissions must be certified (305/5(1)) and the appointments reflected in the commissions also registered (305/5(2)) The two are not mutually exclusive and should not be read that way.
Wow! You two make my head hurt! I think White is wrong. I hope the courts think the same. Personally, I think the guy is playing politics and, if in violation of the law, should be charged and tried.

White's an ass.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Wow! You two make my head hurt! I think White is wrong. I hope the courts think the same. Personally, I think the guy is playing politics and, if in violation of the law, should be charged and tried.

White's an ass.
Glad to help. :lol:

I think White is wrong and being an ass too. :yay:
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Now back to White, how does he justify not signing the appointment commission when Illinois statute specifically states within the Secretary of State Act that "It shall be the duty of the Secretary of State:
1. To countersign and affix the seal of state to all commissions required by law to be issued by the Governor."?
According to White:

"My signature is mostly ceremonial, rather than a point of law". He also said that the Senate was making him out to be the fall guy & the lack of his signature had no bearing on whether the Senate should seat Burris or not.

Jesse White: I've been made the fall guy - Chicago Breaking News

There's an audio link to a much longer radio interview at the bottom of the article at that link
 
While the statute in question does not define "commission" as opposed to "appointment," the two terms are consistent. There is already precedent on this matter in Illinois. In People ex rel. Ewing v. Forquer, 1 Ill. 104, 1825 WL 1467 (Ill. 1825), one of the only cases interpreting a Secretary of State's obligations with regard to gubernatorial appointments, the Court used the term "commission" to refer to the document making the "appointment". This is consistent with a plain reading of the two sections of the law which are at issue in the Burris suit. Commissions must be certified (305/5(1)) and the appointments reflected in the commissions also registered (305/5(2)) The two are not mutually exclusive and should not be read that way.
I tend to agree, but I haven't read all of the filings and citations to have a strong opinion. In the context of that statute, it seems that the word is used generally.

You are also no doubt correct that the duties under 305/5(2) in no way limit the duties under 305/5(1).

I do make one distinction though. 305/5(1) doesn't require the SOS to 'certify' a commission, it requires him to 'to countersign and affix the seal of state to' it. Although that can be referred to as certifying it, that term can also be misleading. He isn't certifying the appointment, he is certifying the document - the proof of the appointment.

Although there remains some disagreement about White's duty to sign the appointment, all of the parties' filings (in Illinois) reflect the belief that Burris has, in fact, already been duly appointed, notwithstanding the absence of White's signature.

I suspect this issue will play out on the state level, or the Senate will agree to seat Burris anyway.
 
White's an ass.
I agree. He wanted to take a stand where he had not authority to do so. Then, he realized that he was essentially impotent on the issue. So, he concocted a legally suspect argument to justify his defiance, instead of admitting that he was wrong. In my opinion, both he and the Senate are in the wrong.
 

cwo_ghwebb

No Use for Donk Twits
According to White:

"My signature is mostly ceremonial, rather than a point of law". He also said that the Senate was making him out to be the fall guy & the lack of his signature had no bearing on whether the Senate should seat Burris or not.

Jesse White: I've been made the fall guy - Chicago Breaking News

There's an audio link to a much longer radio interview at the bottom of the article at that link

Fall guy my butt! If his signature is just ceremonial, sign the damn thing and let the country move forward.

I'd like about 30 seconds with this idiot between two sets of glass doors.
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Fall guy my butt! If his signature is just ceremonial, sign the damn thing and let the country move forward.

I'd like about 30 seconds with this idiot between two sets of glass doors.
Actually, I don't care if he signs it or not - since it's up to Illinois to handle their own dirty laundry. Right or wrong - Il can deal with him.

But he's right about the Senate. They were making him the fall guy for their not seating Burris. They had nothing to hang that on. They didn't require his signature to seat Burris. They don't require his signature now, do they?

Listen to the audio interview.
 

cwo_ghwebb

No Use for Donk Twits
Actually, I don't care if he signs it or not - since it's up to Illinois to handle their own dirty laundry. Right or wrong - Il can deal with him.

But he's right about the Senate. They were making him the fall guy for their not seating Burris. They had nothing to hang that on. They didn't require his signature to seat Burris. They don't require his signature now, do they?

Listen to the audio interview.
If he had signed the document (basically, if he did his job) this wouldn't have been any kind of issue, period.

The idiot should be thrown out of office.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Actually, I don't care if he signs it or not - since it's up to Illinois to handle their own dirty laundry. Right or wrong - Il can deal with him.

But he's right about the Senate. They were making him the fall guy for their not seating Burris. They had nothing to hang that on. They didn't require his signature to seat Burris. They don't require his signature now, do they?

Listen to the audio interview.
Yeah, the signature is required just as if it was a certificate of election. Think of it as a document requiring a notary to be valid. Without it all you have is a piece of paper. In this case the Illinois Secretary of State is the state's notary public.
 
I just found something that confirms to me that White's legal argument does not hold water. In Burris' third (of four) substantive filings before the Illinois Supreme Court, he includes a copy of an order from Governor Blagojevich. It is an order, issued January 2nd, to have a special election to replace Rahm Emanuel in the U.S. House of Reps. It is signed and stamped by White.

Illinois law dictates that the Governor issue such an order, but in the wording of the statute, there is no specific reference to a 'commission' being issued. So, White's argument, that 305/5(1) only applies in instances where a 'commission' is specifically required by law, would seem to fail.

I guess he could argue that he didn't have to sign the order of special election either, but he did so because he wanted to. :shrug: I'm not buying it, and I suspect the Illinois Supreme Court won't either.

Okay, on to more important issues - Oklahoma is getting ready to get stomped by Florida. :lol:
 
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Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Yeah, the signature is required just as if it was a certificate of election. Think of it as a document requiring a notary to be valid. Without it all you have is a piece of paper. In this case the Illinois Secretary of State is the state's notary public.
I know what a signature / certification is - not to worry. But *I'm* not the one who said it wasn't required. I'm just posting the information where White said his signature was basically ceremonial. He explains it more in the interview.
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Did you all listen to that audio interview I posted?

White isn't saying that his signature is not required or necessary to certify Burris as a Senator in Illinois. He's saying it's not required and not necessary for the SENATE to consider Burris as legitimate. The Senate was using that as their "reason" not to seat Burris. Only because they didn't want to accept him since Blago appointed him. Afterall, the Senate doesn't have White's signature today -and now they're going to accept Burris as legitimate.

White has also said he'll sign the document if the IL State Supreme Court orders him to. But only then, because in December he gave the IL people his word that he wasn't going to certify anyone the (corrupt) governor would appoint. I'm not saying he's right or wrong - that's what HE said. He also said that he, Burris & Bobby Rush all declared the same thing, but he's the only one staying true to his word.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
I know what a signature / certification is - not to worry. But *I'm* not the one who said it wasn't required. I'm just posting the information where White said his signature was basically ceremonial. He explains it more in the interview.
So based on your earlier post are you saying that the Secretary of the Senate should have accepted the document without it being notarized?
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Actually, I don't care if he signs it or not - since it's up to Illinois to handle their own dirty laundry. Right or wrong - Il can deal with him.

But he's right about the Senate. They were making him the fall guy for their not seating Burris. They had nothing to hang that on. They didn't require his signature to seat Burris. They don't require his signature now, do they?

Listen to the audio interview.
I know what a signature / certification is - not to worry. But *I'm* not the one who said it wasn't required. I'm just posting the information where White said his signature was basically ceremonial. He explains it more in the interview.
Did you all listen to that audio interview I posted?

White isn't saying that his signature is not required or necessary to certify Burris as a Senator in Illinois. He's saying it's not required and not necessary for the SENATE to consider Burris as legitimate. The Senate was using that as their "reason" not to seat Burris. Only because they didn't want to accept him since Blago appointed him. Afterall, the Senate doesn't have White's signature today -and now they're going to accept Burris as legitimate.

White has also said he'll sign the document if the IL State Supreme Court orders him to. But only then, because in December he gave the IL people his word that he wasn't going to certify anyone the (corrupt) governor would appoint. I'm not saying he's right or wrong - that's what HE said. He also said that he, Burris & Bobby Rush all declared the same thing, but he's the only one staying true to his word.
So based on your earlier post are you saying that the Secretary of the Senate should have accepted the document without it being notarized?
I'm not being obtuse, Ken, but where did I say that? I'm just posting what White said about it all. And - I added that he must be right about it,(the Senate not needing his signature) since the Senate is NOW "accepting" Burris and they don't have a signed ("notarized") document.

It's all convoluted, I agree. And it's a bunch of hooey right now when we have much bigger issues at stake in the country right now. And yeah, the pinheads are all making asses of themselves. But it's kind of fun to watch the Dems eating their own.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
I'm not being obtuse, Ken, but where did I say that? I'm just posting what White said about it all. And - I added that he must be right about it,(the Senate not needing his signature) since the Senate is NOW "accepting" Burris and they don't have a signed ("notarized") document.

It's all convoluted, I agree. And it's a bunch of hooey right now when we have much bigger issues at stake in the country right now. And yeah, the pinheads are all making asses of themselves. But it's kind of fun to watch the Dems eating their own.
Do you have a link to support this claim of Burris now being accepted/seated? From what I have heard and read is that Reid retreated from his stance of not seating anyone Blagojevich has appointed to a stance of if Burris's paperwork is in order and he provides a sworn declaration that he didn't offer anything to Blagojevich in exchange for the seat then they will seat him. To date the paperwork is not in order and I am not sure if he has provided the sworn statement (which I think is not necessary).
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
Do you have a link to support this claim of Burris now being accepted/seated? From what I have heard and read is that Reid retreated from his stance of not seating anyone Blagojevich has appointed to a stance of if Burris's paperwork is in order and he provides a sworn declaration that he didn't offer anything to Blagojevich in exchange for the seat then they will seat him. To date the paperwork is not in order and I am not sure if he has provided the sworn statement (which I think is not necessary).
Well, crikey! It's an about face, saying they're going to accept him now, after all the media brouhaha. Apparently, Reid is saying Burris has to have paperwork,(which Burris is suing in IL for) and other criteria Burris has to meet. In reality, he's saying that to save face. Senators on both sides of the aisle are saying that. I was gathering my opinions from what I watched this afternoon on TV and a few articles I skimmed through. Here's one-

Dem leaders beaten by Hurricane Burris - Manu Raju and Amie Parnes - Politico.com

And I'm just trying to have a conversation, a back and forth of ideas on the issues of the day. I honestly do not have the time to do reams of the research of all the legalese on this that others can. :smile:
 
And I'm just trying to have a conversation, a back and forth of ideas on the issues of the day. I honestly do not have the time to do reams of the research of all the legalese on this that others can. :smile:
Bann, just to be clear, I've repeatedly argued that the Senate does not have a specific rule that would require that White's signature be on Burris' appointment, as a condition for him being seated. If such a rule or law exists, I've not been able to find it.

Also, if such a rule existed, it would seem to be unconstitutional.

Both SOS White and the U.S. Senate have been weasels in this situation.
 
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