the scriptures

[ve2dict]

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

 

[Starman3000m]

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

Good! Likewise, you would need actual proof of evolution before you could accept the citing of science theories as truth.

However, As far as scriptures are concerned, they are written by those who experienced the accounts first-hand. That is unless you don't believe that historical figures such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus ever existed. Scriptures from the Bible are writings or sayings of the historical Patriarchs, Prophets and of Jesus that have been documented - just as historical accounts from ancient secular civilizations have been passed down to give an account of things that happened in the past. The writings of Jewish leaders and even of the Roman Emperor, Caesar, confirm the account of Jesus' existence. The next step is yours on what to believe about Jesus.

 

[Penn]

Good! Likewise, you would need actual proof of evolution before you could accept the citing of science theories as truth.

However, As far as scriptures are concerned, they are written by those who experienced the accounts first-hand. That is unless you don't believe that historical figures such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus ever existed. Scriptures from the Bible are writings or sayings of the historical Patriarchs, Prophets and of Jesus that have been documented - just as historical accounts from ancient secular civilizations have been passed down to give an account of things that happened in the past. The writings of Jewish leaders and even of the Roman Emperor, Caesar, confirm the account of Jesus' existence. The next step is yours on what to believe about Jesus.

Speaking of scriptures, I'd like to ask your "take" of the final chapter in the Gospel of John - #21. What is the message in Johns' words? I have read it more than a few times, and have my own thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Penn]

Is this an open question?

Yeah, Ok, please try not to debase it, alright? I had a discussion about it with an acquaintance, and he said he never saw the meaning himself as I did(from my perspective) and found it very interesting.

 

[Starman3000m]

Speaking of scriptures, I'd like to ask your "take" of the final chapter in the Gospel of John - #21. What is the message in Johns' words? I have read it more than a few times, and have my own thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

You go first. What are your thoughts?

 

[Penn]

You go first. What are your thoughts?

Aw, that's not fair!

Alright, my gist, in reading the entire chapter, putting it all together, there is as much of the idea of Free Will, as there is anything else.

That's what I saw.

 

[Starman3000m]

It reads that, he did so much that all of Jesus' works can not be contained in a book. My problem with the verse is that it contradicts Luke (Acts 1:1-2) which states it does contain all of his works

Not debasing it, just one of the Biblical conundrums.

What Bible are you using?

Acts 1:1-2 states: 1: The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2: Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Although you reference John 21:25, John's explanation in Ch. 20 indicates that there are many more miracles and teachings of Jesus that could have been written. However, we are told that we have All The Message that is required to know of Jesus' Message backed up by many (not all) accounts of His Miracles and sayings.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
(John 20:30-31)

 

[Penn]

It reads that, he did so much that all of Jesus' works can not be contained in a book. My problem with the verse is that it contradicts Luke (Acts 1:1-2) which states it does contain all of his works

Not debasing it, just one of the Biblical conundrums.

Nucklesack, that is the "wrap-up" of the entire chapter, not what is contained in the 2 pages before those words

 

[Starman3000m]

Aw, that's not fair!

Alright, my gist, in reading the entire chapter, putting it all together, there is as much of the idea of Free Will, as there is anything else.

That's what I saw.

OK - That's cool. But, actually, I also see Free-Will throughout the New Testament as well.

BTW: At first I thought you might be referring to the question of John's destiny as mentioned in John Chapter 21, verses:

20: Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21: Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

The disciples jumped to conclusions in v23 and some people believed that John never died a natural death. However,
"yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die..."

John was the last survivor of the Apostles who died a natural death, while the others were persecuted and tortured for their faith.

 

[Penn]

The first few verses describe a scene, where approximately 6 or 7 Disciples are sitting around the shore of the Sea of Galilee. Depending which Bible version you are reading, you can get a sense that these men are despondent, confused, and do not know what to expect in their future.

Peter steps up to the plate, and declares "I'm going fishing!" The others, almost relieved, decide this is a great idea and all go out in the fishing boat.

It appears(from movies I have seen) that this happened late in the afternoon or early evening. They set out, and apparently fish the entire evening and into the very early morning hours.

Back in a sec....

 

[Penn]

Pause a second: what did these gentlemen do for a living(for the most part)?

They were fishermen!

They decide to return to shore, with empty nets, after being out all night with nothing to show for it. John sees a figure on the beach/shore and after a few minutes, he realises it's JESUS! He informs Peter, sayin "look, it is our Lord!"

Peter girds himself, after recognizing it is in fact Jesus, and they come in closer to the shore. Jesus asks: "Have you caught any fish?"

"No", they reply. Jesus then tells them to go back out and "cast your nets on thr right side of the boat."

How am I doing?

 

[Penn]

They do go back out into the deeper sea, and follow Jesus" advice. OMG! They are so successful,(catching fish) they can't even pull in the net into the boat!

Pause: Free Will, Act 1: Their way, or His way? They knew how to fish, but without His guidance, His advice, they could not catch any fish. Eh?

 

[Penn]

So, into the shore they come, dragging a net load of fish. Jesus then invites them to share breakfast with Him. He's got a fire going on the rocks, with a few fish and bread, and asks them to join Him, and bring some of the fish they just caught, so that all could partake in the meal.

This is where things get serious. After a few moments of downing some food, Jesus lays it down hard on Peter, asking him 3 times - "Do you love me more than these?"

If you've read the Bible, you know the answers. By the time Peter answers the third question, he is quite unnerved, in tears, in fact.
Jesus, in my view has just brought Peter back "into the fold". Even though Jesus had told Peter that during the night of His arrest and trial, he would deny he ever knew Jesus.

 

[Penn]

Then, it gets even more intense: Jesus describes Peter's fate, where He tells Peter "When you were a young man, you clothed yourself and went wherever you wished, and no danger came unto you." Or words to that effect.

Then He told him "When you grow old, there will be people who will clothe you, and take you to a place you do not want to go."

He is going to die as a martyr for taking up Jesus' cause.

Then Jesus tells Peter "Let us go for a walk along the seashore."

They are walking along for a minute or two, when Peter spots a figure trailing them, in the distance behind them. Peter recognises the figure as "the Disciple that Jesus loved." Peter turns to Jesus and asks: "What about him?"

Jesus replies: "If I choose to let him live until I return, what is that to you?"

"You follow me!"

Ok, after all the stressful emotions, that Jesus had just moments before - laid in Peter's soul, not to mention his spirit, why would Peter STILL have the curiosity to wonder about the fate of another man?

Major Free Will example, Act 2.

How did I do?

 

[Starman3000m]

Major Free Will example, Act 2.

How did I do?

Looks like You're On A Roll! Good insights and thought put into the scenarios described. Sticking to the main point that we do have alternatives but if we choose to do as Jesus asks we won't go wrong.

 

[Penn]

Looks like You're On A Roll! Good insights and thought put into the scenarios described. Sticking to the main point that we do have alternatives but if we choose to do as Jesus asks we won't go wrong.

AMEN, brother!

Last thoughts: Around that timeframe, when we were studying the Gospel of John in our Adult Sunday School classroom, the movie "Bruce Almighty" was popular on the HBO channels. Although it is/was a terrific comedy, I saw some sobering ideas, situations in which Bruce found facing him.

One of the scenes I remembered was - when God was satisfied that He could leave the world in good hands, while He went on a well-deserved vacation - 7 days, He was bidding Bruce farewell, whe Bruce stopped Him with a very serious question:

"If You have given mankind the measure of Free Will, then how do you get them to love you?"

God replied: "Now you see where My problem is."

THAT floored me; I sat there for many minutes, in awe of what I just witnessed.

 

[itsbob]

im just wondering how citing scriptures is proof of anything. i would need proof of the scriptures before you could use them as an answer to anything.

ED ZACHARY!!

 

[itsbob]

so there answer was..


We'll cite scripture to prove they are real!!??

I had an epiphany this week..

I'm going to call myself a Godhist.

I believe in God..

You do NOT have to believe in Christ, Christianity, the Bible OR organized religion.. YOu can skip the middle man and just believe in God. And I use the term God as I don't know any other word anyone would recognize for a superior being or force. I don't know if God looks like us, but I doubt it.

I do not believe Jesus was a saviour, or a human with super powers, just like I believe nobody on the earth today has super human powers, nor can be resurrected. Jesus was a man, a normal everyday man that the "Oliver Stones" of the day made bigger than life. He was a thug, a lawbreaker, and died for his crimes.

Just like Mohammed.. and Buddah.. and the rest of the supernatural beings humans invented to make us feel better about ourselves and the 'afterlife'.

 

[Penn]

so there answer was..


We'll cite scripture to prove they are real!!??

I had an epiphany this week..

I'm going to call myself a Godhist.

I believe in God..

You do NOT have to believe in Christ, Christianity, the Bible OR organized religion.. YOu can skip the middle man and just believe in God. And I use the term God as I don't know any other word anyone would recognize for a superior being or force. I don't know if God looks like us, but I doubt it.

I do not believe Jesus was a saviour, or a human with super powers, just like I believe nobody on the earth today has super human powers, nor can be resurrected. Jesus was a man, a normal everyday man that the "Oliver Stones" of the day made bigger than life. He was a thug, a lawbreaker, and died for his crimes.

Just like Mohammed.. and Buddah.. and the rest of the supernatural beings humans invented to make us feel better about ourselves and the 'afterlife'.

Bob, you can subscribe to any belief, or set of ideals you wish to; that's your choice. However, I am in disgust that you would label Jesus Christ as a "thug".

I am going to say a prayer to God, in Jesus's name, on your behalf.

 

[Penn]

Consider it a "done deal". May the Holy Spirit come into you, in a quiet moment, and share His thoughts with you.............praise be to God!