Trust the market?

Sparx

New Member
Trust the Market? - Enron has reportedly come to an agreement to settle lawsuits over pension employee fund claims. If completed, this agreement will increase the total amount of money recovered by former and current Enron employees to $150 million dollars. That is a lot of money. Unfortunately, it is only five percent of the $3 billion dollars lost when the company's shares collapsed in 2001. What would happen if a similar fate came to your proposed Social Security private account?

Speaking of Social Security, the latest polling seems to support common sense- 51 percent believe that it is a bad idea to allow individuals to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes on their own. Only 43 percent thought it was a good idea, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll conducted February 24 - 28.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Sparx said:
What would happen if a similar fate came to your proposed Social Security private account?
For that to happen, the entire market would have to crash. In that case, we're all screwed anyway.
Sparx said:
Speaking of Social Security, the latest polling seems to support common sense- 51 percent believe that it is a bad idea to allow individuals to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes on their own. Only 43 percent thought it was a good idea, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll conducted February 24 - 28.
Support common sense? The private accounts isn't investing "on their own". My understanding of the private account option that I like is that it would be similar to TSP where you a given a couple options (5 in TSP) for how to invest the money. There is a range of risky/high yield options to safe/low yield options. It's spelled out pretty plainly so that an idiot could figure it out. But, since you want to use polls, it would be interesting to poll those people on a) what they actually know about private accounts and b) what do they know about the stock market? My guess is that the vast majority would know nothing about either.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Sparx...

the latest polling seems to support common sense

I'll make you a deal; let me keep my 1/2 of SS/Med payroll tax (7 1/2% of my gross wages) and the other half can go to support you when/if you get to 62/65 or so, at your current projected benefit, AND the feds owe me NOTHING.

How'd that be?
 

Sparx

New Member
ylexot said:
For that to happen, the entire market would have to crash. In that case, we're all screwed anyway.
Support common sense? The private accounts isn't investing "on their own". My understanding of the private account option that I like is that it would be similar to TSP where you a given a couple options (5 in TSP) for how to invest the money. There is a range of risky/high yield options to safe/low yield options. It's spelled out pretty plainly so that an idiot could figure it out. But, since you want to use polls, it would be interesting to poll those people on a) what they actually know about private accounts and b) what do they know about the stock market? My guess is that the vast majority would know nothing about either.

That's exactly why, If given the chance, a vast majority of people won't take the option if given the chance. They will do nothing and leave their S.S. account where it is.
Years ago I was a trustee for a defined contribution retirement plan. Most of the participants cried and cried for a self directed type of plan. We as trusties gave them what they wanted and 5% of them used the option. The self directed plan was more costly to administer so everyones costs went up and only 5% used the option. Be careful what you ask for, you may just get it!
 

Sparx

New Member
Larry Gude said:
I'll make you a deal; let me keep my 1/2 of SS/Med payroll tax (7 1/2% of my gross wages) and the other half can go to support you when/if you get to 62/65 or so, at your current projected benefit, AND the feds owe me NOTHING.

How'd that be?

Do what you want, I'm not in the Social Security plan. As I said before, I'd be happy if they did away with the whole mess.
 

Lenny

Lovin' being Texican
Sparx said:
Only 43 percent thought it was a good idea, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll conducted February 24 - 28.

I believe it has since been shown by the blogsphere that Dan Rather conducted this poll of only those over 72 years of age and unable to understand the meaning of the phrase "please keep your pizz in the toilet."
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Everybody that I've talked to, who are in or near my age bracket, want the private accounts. I don't know who all these "I don't want it types" are... aside from Democrats who are starkly terrified at the prospect of W taking away their last big campaign issue.
 

alex

Member
I am on the downside of 40 and I still am not sure which way would be better. While the TSP program that some of you on this board are in and talk about sounds great I have heard that the plan proposed by President Bush would not be the same as that - why not if it works and is a good plan? I don't really trust the markets and would not want all of my retirement based on them. I had a very nice 401K that lost quite a bit in the past 2 years and can only hope it will recover by the time I retire - if I can retire.

I am not depending soley on Social Security but a combination of various things - 401k, SS, and other investments made by my spouse. I think that is the way to go. To depend totally on SS is stupid but I have paid enough over the years to want at least some of it back to enable me to retire when I turn 65. If SS just gave me enough to pay for medical insurance when I retire that would be good enough.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
alex...

I am on the downside of 40 and I still am not sure which way would be better.

I read this to mean you are closing in on 50, not 40. If so, yeah, you are in a gray area. The thing is, a government guaranteed benefit is unbeatable in regards to safety. Unless the law is changed later on.

Given all the changes to SS since it's inception I think it prudent to count on change. What kind of change?

In 15-20 years the boomers will be a tremendously powerful political force and the reality may be defecit spending to get you and I (I am the end of the 'boomers') through to old age. BUT we will live longer, probably average into our mid/late 80's by then...or more.

THIS IS ALL THAT MATTERS: When we're gone, there will be relief to the system but people are only having two kids these days. That math could get no more simple: 1 mom, 1 dad, two kids and maybe their 4 to take care of the old folks. 4:2, 2:1. Four paying two, two paying one in a Ponzi scheme which started at 22:1.

It's bag holding time. The rest is conversation of 'how'. Not 'if' SS dies.

If nano technologies or other things emerge along with never ending advances in health and medicine, we could be looking at repairable hearts, lungs etc. We could be looking at clear minds and useable bodies at 80 plus years of age.

The downside is, obviously, living longer straining the system even more. There is no limit to SS. As long a you are alive, you get paid.

The upside is, what the hell, the ability to work.

So, some thinking about what the future may look like can help but the very first step is agreeing, all of us, based on SIMPLE math of how many kids wer're having is this: SOCIAL SECURITY IS DONE. It can NOT work any longer.

Any one resisting change now is a petulent child and will find themselves not part of the solution. The good news is as stupid people and their representatives further remove themselves from the debate, the solution will be that much less polluted with the opinions of people who refuse to face reality.

Go here: http://www.bloomberg.com/analysis/calculators/retire.html#results

Get out your SS summary. Play with the numbers. See what you're slated to get. Now, understand that won't happen. It can't. Do some scenarios where you sacrifice part of what you're apying now to take care of our elders and see them through the system they are depending on. See what you could do with the rest at 4%. 6%. Take a look at the gap needed from our young'ns to close the gap bweteen what you are now promised and what you could OWN if you could invest it. Take a look at how far PAST you could be under fairly typical historical returns.

A first year Wharton Business school undergrad could take all the tables, population growth, age, % of population in the program, projected personal income, inflation projections, GDP projections, market projections and in every scenario come up with a program that would exceed, for everyone, what SS would provide.

The dirty secret is if the market is so bad, the doomsday scenario, that a new plan wouldn't be able to meet todays projections, the fact would be that the economy would be so bad that the feds couldn't pay anyone anyway under the existing program.

So, it's not 'if' Social Security is laid to rest. It's 'when' and 'how'. This nation does incredible things when it is unified.

As I've said before, me, at 41, would happily keep 1/2 my 15%, continue contributing the other half and relieve the government of owing my ANYTHING when I retire.

The possibilities are endless because of ONE fact; SS is done. It can't work past the the existing generation of retirees.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Sparx said:
Trust the Market?
Speaking of Social Security, the latest polling seems to support common sense- 51 percent believe that it is a bad idea to allow individuals to invest a portion of their Social Security taxes on their own. Only 43 percent thought it was a good idea, according to a CBS News/New York Times Poll conducted February 24 - 28.
I trust the market a whole lot more than CBS News/New York Times. :killingme
 
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