Truth

[Railroad]

Saturday Thread 7-23-5
<HR style="COLOR: #e5e5cc" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God." - John 8:42-47 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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People say they don't believe what the Bible says; some others say that either the Old Testament or the New Testament is false. They have many reasons concocted to justify their position.

These are the same people who will not understand the true message in the scriptures. They say they understand, but in reality they do not and cannot understand and accept the infallible, unassailable truths provided in the Bible. In particular, the Law and the Great Sacrifice that allows our salvation seem to elude them.

It takes an honest and earnest heart to seek and find Jesus Christ. It takes a predisposition willing to forsake all evil in His name. It takes real faith, pure faith, to ask for His forgiveness and ask for His Salvation.

For the skeptics:
You can sit there in your chair with your arms folded, gazing at me or others with a vacant stare, saying "Convince me," and nothing will happen, for certain, except your continued journey toward eternal damnation. You can play little games in which you bolster the unbelief of others and convince yourself that your fatal mistakes are in fact correct.

The Word of the Lord weighs heavily before you, and you groan at the sight of it. You are vexed by the truth; you kick against the thorns that prick the sides of the unrighteous. You rush away to greater sins, hoping to prove that you can do these things and live, denying your eternal damnation as you deny your Creator. Sometimes the very sight of the Cross angers you, as do other symbols like the tablets of the Ten Commandments. The mere evidence of the One True God burns like a strong medicine on the corruption that consumes you. You are like the very snake whom you follow.

But if you determine in your heart that: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23), kneel in prayer and with all your heart ask Christ to cleanse you, to save you. In that very hour you'll be saved, and the blinders will drop off your eyes, and you will see the Truth that you have not understood. I'm praying for you, that when you reach the point of making the decision between eternal Life and Death, that you will choose Life and love the Lord.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well said. I, too, pray that the Word is received, so "none should be lost".

 

[2ndAmendment]

2 Corinthians 4

<sup id="en-NASB-28861">1</sup>Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, <sup id="en-NASB-28862">2</sup>but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

<sup id="en-NASB-28863">3</sup>And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

<sup id="en-NASB-28864">4</sup>in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

<sup id="en-NASB-28865">5</sup>For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

<sup id="en-NASB-28866">6</sup>For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

I was "blind" but now I "see". I pray that all would "see".

 

[Railroad]

Excellent, 2A! - Great explanation.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Quick question, not being sarcastic or anything, just genuine curiosity. What about all the people that lived before Christ that never had any chance at recieving the word. Say the ancient Greeks or Chinese, how are they affected.

 

[willie]

Quick question, not being sarcastic or anything, just genuine curiosity. What about all the people that lived before Christ that never had any chance at recieving the word. Say the ancient Greeks or Chinese, how are they affected.

They are probably very well done by now.

 

[Railroad]

Quick question, not being sarcastic or anything, just genuine curiosity. What about all the people that lived before Christ that never had any chance at recieving the word. Say the ancient Greeks or Chinese, how are they affected.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Jesus Christ, in Luke 12:42-48

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[Tonio]

They are probably very well done by now.

That's part of why I don't consider myself a Christian, even though I believe in God. The emotional resonance I get from reading the Old Testament is of a God who is capricious and impossible to please. Like nothing that humans do is good enough for Him. Like no matter what we do, we're doomed.

 

[Railroad]

That's part of why I don't consider myself a Christian, even though I believe in God. The emotional resonance I get from reading the Old Testament is of a God who is capricious and impossible to please. Like nothing that humans do is good enough for Him. Like no matter what we do, we're doomed.

That's why Jesus died on the cross, man. He paid for YOUR sins so that you can indeed please God and go to Heaven when you die. You CANNOT get to heaven on your own good deeds. You are human, and so you can't be perfect.

 

[willie]

That's why Jesus died on the cross, man. He paid for YOUR sins so that you can indeed please God and go to Heaven when you die. You CANNOT get to heaven on your own good deeds. You are human, and so you can't be perfect.

I have never heard a rational explanation of "Original Sin". Bustem' Down's question is a valid one, that's a whole lot of soul's before Christ.

 

[Tonio]

That's why Jesus died on the cross, man. He paid for YOUR sins so that you can indeed please God and go to Heaven when you die. You CANNOT get to heaven on your own good deeds. You are human, and so you can't be perfect.

Genesis 38 refers to God killing Judah's son Er for being "wicked in the sight of the Lord," without any reference to what "wicked" meant. Genesis 6 takes a similar viewpoint, talking about wickedness and evil in men's hearts but only identifying one evil act, that of violence.

I read those passages for the first time at age 10 or so, and it was scary to feel trapped in a universe where you could get in trouble and not know the reason why. (Partly because these events took place before Exodus and the Ten Commandments.) It felt like God could kill you simply because he doesn't like you.

As I've written before, I find it strange to go shopping for our kids and see sheets and wallpaper with the Noah's Ark theme. Wouldn't an accurate depiction of the Flood show people in the millions being subjected to painful deaths by drowning?

 

[Railroad]

Genesis 38 refers to God killing Judah's son Er for being "wicked in the sight of the Lord," without any reference to what "wicked" meant. Genesis 6 takes a similar viewpoint, talking about wickedness and evil in men's hearts but only identifying one evil act, that of violence.

I read those passages for the first time at age 10 or so, and it was scary to feel trapped in a universe where you could get in trouble and not know the reason why. (Partly because these events took place before Exodus and the Ten Commandments.) It felt like God could kill you simply because he doesn't like you.

As I've written before, I find it strange to go shopping for our kids and see sheets and wallpaper with the Noah's Ark theme. Wouldn't an accurate depiction of the Flood show people in the millions being subjected to painful deaths by drowning?

Okay, read again:
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">2 Corinthians 4

<SUP id=en-NASB-28861>1</SUP>Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, <SUP id=en-NASB-28862>2</SUP>but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

<SUP id=en-NASB-28863>3</SUP>And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

<SUP id=en-NASB-28864>4</SUP>in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

<SUP id=en-NASB-28865>5</SUP>For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

<SUP id=en-NASB-28866>6</SUP>For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Make your choice. If you choose to get past those excuses you've made for yourself, you'll understand. If not, you won't. That's your choice. But your choosing doesn't change truth.

 

[Railroad]

I have never heard a rational explanation of "Original Sin". Bustem' Down's question is a valid one, that's a whole lot of soul's before Christ.

(BTW, more than one soul is souls, not soul's).

Re-quote, just for you:

And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[willie]

(BTW, more than one soul is souls, not soul's).

Re-quote, just for you:

Puleeze pahdon my wild apostrophe.
Quote:

And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Are we assuming what God is thinking? Your quote does not answer the question.

 

[Railroad]

Puleeze pahdon my wild apostrophe.
Quote:

And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Are we assuming what God is thinking? Your quote does not answer the question.

It answers the question very well indeed, for those who can understand it. And I'm not talking about your intellect, Willie, I know you're a very smart man.

Anyway - the Word's there; the message is clear. I don't argue, so I'm afraid I won't be much entertainment for you or Tonio.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Luke 16:15-17


<sup id="en-NASB-25636">15</sup>And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

<sup id="en-NASB-25637">16</sup>"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

<sup id="en-NASB-25638">17</sup>"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

God knows the hearts of men and there lies Bustem' Down answer. Before the universe was created, God had His plan of salvation through Jesus.

Genesis 15:6

<sup id="en-NASB-367">6</sup>Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Even in the Old Testament, faith and believing God was reckoned as righteousness. Those that did not have the opportunity to accept Jesus in the times of the Old Testament and those of today that have not heard of God's plan of salvation through Jesus are judged according to God's knowledge of the motives of their own heart.

 

[willie]

It answers the question very well indeed, for those who can understand it. And I'm not talking about your intellect, Willie, I know you're a very smart man.

Anyway - the Word's there; the message is clear. I don't argue, so I'm afraid I won't be much entertainment for you or Tonio.

I am not arguing. I am asking for an explanation of an "Original Sin" question that a non Christian can understand. Quotes from a book that has been corrupted by humans over the years tells me nothing. Waaaay too much faith is involved here for me. Faith, to me, requires some supporting evidence......maybe not even 50% but some evidence. I'll even believe California is going to be consumed by the sea. A human writing down the word of God is not it, Muhammad did that in his cave.

 

[Tonio]

I am not arguing. I am asking for an explanation of an "Original Sin" question that a non Christian can understand.

I'm not arguing either. I'm just stating the emotions I have regarding Christian doctrine. When I read about the concept of original sin, the message I get is that humans, individually and collectively, are evil and worthless and are better off dead. I don't understand how anyone can accept the concept and still have any self-esteem, or even a will to live.

 

[Bustem' Down]

So, cultures before Christ who performed human sacrifices are ok because they genuinly thought that's what they needed to do on a religious level and were not doing it out of any malice. God know's in thier heart that they were trying to do good and that the killing was in ignorance right?

 

[willie]

So, cultures before Christ who performed human sacrifices are ok because they genuinly thought that's what they needed to do on a religious level and were not doing it out of any malice. God know's in thier heart that they were trying to do good and that the killing was in ignorance right?

I read it as the ones before Christ will be beaten with fewer stripes. I might expect that kind of wording in a later version of the Quran. My God may have just dumped us here for His amusement or whatever reason but I will not believe we are primarily doomed for a beating.