Trying to sell after non-permit work done

[ferdberfel]

I finished my basement without a permit several years ago. Did framing, electric, and plumbing. Am thinking of selling in near future. Any ideas of what (if anything) I should do? Should I get somebody to inspect my work and then plead with the county for a permit, or should I sell and say nothing?

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

You might have an appraiser who will track down any permits for the improvements, especially since your house with the finished basement doesn't meet the tax description of unfinished basement.

You can apply for an after the fact permt. The problem will be with the electrical and plumbing, the inspector will likely require you open up the walls for the inspection.

 

[officeguy]

Whatever you do, be up-front about it with any buyer.

My current home had that situation during one transaction prior to my purchase. The original owner of the home had finished the basement without pulling the required permits. House got sold. When a couple of months in, the basement toilet backed up the plumber who came to fix it discovered that the work was not done to code. After further investigation, it turned out that a bunch of other things were not to code. Litigation ensued and the seller of the home had to fork over a pile of money for a contractor to demo the entire buildout re-do it.

 

[MadDogMarine]

I finished my basement without a permit several years ago. Did framing, electric, and plumbing. Am thinking of selling in near future. Any ideas of what (if anything) I should do? Should I get somebody to inspect my work and then plead with the county for a permit, or should I sell and say nothing?

Call M.D.I.A. and ask them for references to anybody that does home inspections for code compliance. Hire an inspector and have him list any major code issues that you may be able to correct before the date. Keep the documentation with a copy to the buyer to show good faith as well as the changes you made. You can bring it up to code as easy as anyone else.
You can check all your outlet wiring. White on wide and proper ground as well as #12 wire on 20 amp and #14 on 15 amp. A lot of people have refinished basements w/o inspections because most people know it is for increasing your tax assessment. The new buyer could also hire an inspector to do the same thing.

 

[MadDogMarine]

Whatever you do, be up-front about it with any buyer.

My current home had that situation during one transaction prior to my purchase. The original owner of the home had finished the basement without pulling the required permits. House got sold. When a couple of months in, the basement toilet backed up the plumber who came to fix it discovered that the work was not done to code. After further investigation, it turned out that a bunch of other things were not to code. Litigation ensued and the seller of the home had to fork over a pile of money for a contractor to demo the entire buildout re-do it.

Sounds like someone turned a mole hill into a mountain and took advantage of an "out of code compliance" issue to get a free basement redo!
Every house in this county has code violation issues, from dead batteries in the smoke alarm on up. If codes continue in the fashion they have, everything you do in the house will REQUIRE a licensed contractor as well as a zoning permit plus inspection fee. I recall one argument , long ago, with a county official on replacing a light fixture or a bad wall switch. He said it was all ILLEGAL for the homeowner to do. Asking why , he cited the law that said ALL ELECTRIC WORK HAS TO BE DONE UNDER the direct supervision of a licensed master electrician. I dared not ask this idiot if the replacing of a light bulb constituted "electric work" because I already knew what his answer would be.
Maybe you need an inspection of the bulb to ensure the bulb voltage matches the socket voltage(for your safety of course) or the wattage of the bulb did not exceed the wattage rating of the fixture. you were putting it into.

 

[officeguy]

Sounds like someone turned a mole hill into a mountain and took advantage of an "out of code compliance" issue to get a free basement redo!

This was about sewage backing into the basement, untreated lumber against the floor and improper electrical wiring directly nailed onto 2x4s. I am glad this got fixed before I bought the house.

 

[MadDogMarine]

This was about sewage backing into the basement, untreated lumber against the floor and improper electrical wiring directly nailed onto 2x4s. I am glad this got fixed before I bought the house.

I am sure you are glad this was all fixed!, Anyone would be. However I am curious exactly what was the code violation that caused the sewer backing up.
Is this on a septic or city sewer system? Was the backup a direct result of the code violation since I know of a number of people who have had sewer backups in their basements that had nothing to do with code violations. Just the fact it is below ground level can cause such problems. Would I tear up a improperly finished basement because it had untreated lumber against the floor? No I wouldn't. Either treated or untreated would have to be if saturated with sewer. But I am completely puzzled by "improper electrical wiring directly nailed onto 2 x 4s." Having worked as a Master electrician for many years, I have no idea what this means? Electricians "staple" romex on 2x4s all the time. Are you saying someone used actual nails driven through the insulation? Was it the nailing that was the violation or the improper electrical wiring?
I have seen my share of previously installed jobs by both contractors and home owners, and they all have code violations to a greater or lesser degree. Take a look at the code book and you can understand why. I have seen contractors go on a job, and to make themselves "look good" go over everything with a fine tooth comb and easily come up with numerous code violations that they would "never do" had they done the job.
The reason one can do this?
"The NEC ® refers to neat and workmanlike several times yet never defines what constitutes neat and workmanlike"
It has gotten so confusing the decision was made to establish a whole new code called NEIS (National Electrical Installation Standards). Of course non of these codes are adequate, so now, what was once known as the National Electrical or National Building Code has become the International Electrical or Building Code. So if one wants the perfect house, make sure it is in FULL compliance with all these International Codes and one can sleep well knowing the United Nations is taking care of you. Don't worry, Planning and Zoning is on top of this, and all these new codes are being implemented as I write.

 

[officeguy]

Is this on a septic or city sewer system? Was the backup a direct result of the code violation since I know of a number of people who have had sewer backups in their basements that had nothing to do with code violations. Just the fact it is below ground level can cause such problems.

It is a city sewer and the drop between the basement and the sewer was not sufficient to install a bathroom without a lift-pump.

Would I tear up a improperly finished basement because it had untreated lumber against the floor? No I wouldn't. Either treated or untreated would have to be if saturated with sewer.

That had nothing to do with the sewer issue. It was simply not the approved mold-resistant material.

But I am completely puzzled by "improper electrical wiring directly nailed onto 2 x 4s." Having worked as a Master electrician for many years, I have no idea what this means? Electricians "staple" romex on 2x4s all the time. Are you saying someone used actual nails driven through the insulation?

Two problems. He had used a conductor that is not designed to be stapled and instead of stapling it the right way, he had put nails through it. Some of that handywork had escaped the contractor who re-did the work and I found it after it created a short years later.

I have seen my share of previously installed jobs by both contractors and home owners, and they all have code violations to a greater or lesser degree. Take a look at the code book and you can understand why. I have seen contractors go on a job, and to make themselves "look good" go over everything with a fine tooth comb and easily come up with numerous code violations that they would "never do" had they done the job.
The reason one can do this?
"The NEC ® refers to neat and workmanlike several times yet never defines what constitutes neat and workmanlike"

There is a difference between mounting an outlet slightly crooked and using the wrong materials and installing them in an unsafe manner.

International Electrical or Building Code. So if one wants the perfect house, make sure it is in FULL compliance with all these International Codes and one can sleep well knowing the United Nations is taking care of you. Don't worry, Planning and Zoning is on top of this, and all these new codes are being implemented as I write.

The ICC has nothing to do with the UN. It is the same as 'world series' in baseball, international in name but mostly a US affair.

 

[JustStoppingBy]

Whatever you do, be up-front about it with any buyer.

Didn't they change the RE laws this year so that the seller is under no obligation to disclose anything to the buyer?

 

[NorthBeachPerso]

Didn't they change the RE laws this year so that the seller is under no obligation to disclose anything to the buyer?

No.

Maryland's Property Disclosure Law

The Whole Truth About Disclosure

 

[nutz]

Whatever you do, be up-front about it with any buyer.

My current home had that situation during one transaction prior to my purchase. The original owner of the home had finished the basement without pulling the required permits. House got sold. When a couple of months in, the basement toilet backed up the plumber who came to fix it discovered that the work was not done to code. After further investigation, it turned out that a bunch of other things were not to code. Litigation ensued and the seller of the home had to fork over a pile of money for a contractor to demo the entire buildout re-do it.

A house built to code 10 years ago is not in compliance with current code. Sounds more like folk lore than reality.

 

[nutz]

Sounds like someone turned a mole hill into a mountain and took advantage of an "out of code compliance" issue to get a free basement redo!
Every house in this county has code violation issues, from dead batteries in the smoke alarm on up. If codes continue in the fashion they have, everything you do in the house will REQUIRE a licensed contractor as well as a zoning permit plus inspection fee. I recall one argument , long ago, with a county official on replacing a light fixture or a bad wall switch. He said it was all ILLEGAL for the homeowner to do. Asking why , he cited the law that said ALL ELECTRIC WORK HAS TO BE DONE UNDER the direct supervision of a licensed master electrician. I dared not ask this idiot if the replacing of a light bulb constituted "electric work" because I already knew what his answer would be.
Maybe you need an inspection of the bulb to ensure the bulb voltage matches the socket voltage(for your safety of course) or the wattage of the bulb did not exceed the wattage rating of the fixture. you were putting it into.

Exactly right. Licensed professionals that require a fee and permits that require a fee. Then we can add a surcharge to the fee

 

[officeguy]

Didn't they change the RE laws this year so that the seller is under no obligation to disclose anything to the buyer?

A defect that you created and then enclosed with drywall is probably the definition of a 'hidden defect'. Even though there may not be a law that specifically requires you to disclose these items, if the buyer later discovers such a hidden defect he may sue you about concealing it.

If you disclose to the buyer that you did the build-out including the electrical, he can have a professional come out and look at it to verify and measure that things are done in a safe manner.

I rented a home for a short while that had one of those owner-finished basements. ALL the outlets around the basement were hooked up to one 15amp circuit breaker using one continuous loop of 14Gauge wire . If you plugged in a vacuum cleaner, in another room, the TV would go dim.

 

[officeguy]

A house built to code 10 years ago is not in compliance with current code. Sounds more like folk lore than reality.

The basement buildout done by the owner was a few months before the sale.

I got myself the exhibits entered as evidence for the lawsuit. They documented an awful hack-job done to claim extra bedrooms and a bathroom in a neighborhood consisting of very similar homes.

 

[itsbob]

I rented a home for a short while that had one of those owner-finished basements. ALL the outlets around the basement were hooked up to one 15amp circuit breaker using one continuous loop of 14Gauge wire . If you plugged in a vacuum cleaner, in another room, the TV would go dim.

My understanding is the code puts no limits on the number of outlets on a 15amp or 20 amp circuit.


That being said, if I was going to put say 15 - 20 outlets in my basement, and thinking I might have large gatherings down there (think hot plates, crock pots and the like) I would split them up between 3 or 4 20 amp circuits.

Number of outlets aren't the problem, but the load on the ciruit at any given time.

 

[kwillia]

My understanding is the code puts no limits on the number of outlets on a 15amp or 20 amp circuit.


That being said, if I was going to put say 15 - 20 outlets in my basement, and thinking I might have large gatherings down there (think hot plates, crock pots and the like) I would split them up between 3 or 4 20 amp circuits.

Number of outlets aren't the problem, but the load on the ciruit at any given time.

Yep. Before we switched to LED Christmas lights I would trip the breaker if the outside Christmas lights were on when I tried to blow dry my hair...

 

[officeguy]

My understanding is the code puts no limits on the number of outlets on a 15amp or 20 amp circuit.


That being said, if I was going to put say 15 - 20 outlets in my basement, and thinking I might have large gatherings down there (think hot plates, crock pots and the like) I would split them up between 3 or 4 20 amp circuits.

Number of outlets aren't the problem, but the load on the ciruit at any given time.

Something can be to code yet still represent a poorly performing design.

 

[itsbob]

Yep. Before we switched to LED Christmas lights I would trip the breaker if the outside Christmas lights were on when I tried to blow dry my hair...

If I had done it first time, and if I had the opportunity to do it the next time, I wouldn't put neighboring outlets on the same circuit..

For example.. If I was planning on large gatherings where you may have a table full of high draw items I wouldn't want the two or three outlets under THAT table or on that wall on the same circuit..

I'd still have the same amount of circuits, but instead of separating by zone, I'd separate outlet to outlet..

If I had a wall of 6 outlets.. Outlet 1 and 4 would be on one circuit, 2 and 5 another.. and so on, and so on..

 

[itsbob]

Something can be to code yet still represent a poorly performing design.

This is a correct statement..

WWMHD?

 

[kwillia]

This is a correct statement..

WWMHD?

You had better disclose how the trim moves WITH THE DOOR when you open it, mister...