Tulsa officer Betty Shelby booked, released on bond

stgislander

Well-Known Member
My God people! Are you only seeing what you want to see? He was ordered to get on the ground several times (according to Shelby) before he got to his truck. He refused, and instead kept walking to his truck. He put his hands down at the truck appearing to be either reaching into his truck or trying to open his truck; even when they ordered him not to. Shelby - an expert in recognizing someone on PCP - felt Crutcher might have been high on PCP. At this point you have to assume he is reaching for a weapon. Is that not a reasonable assumption given all the other circumstances?
Back in the day I had to take boarding team member training which included the practical pistol course multiple times. And this was in the days before body armor. I'm saying based on the training I had and our rules of engagement, until a weapon was seen, lethal force would not have been authorized.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Oh BS Larry... no one is winning or losing here. I haven't taken sides. I'm willing to say Shelby ####ed up when the evidence comes out and the jury says so. I'm also willing to say Crutcher put himself in this situation by not cooperating. None of this happens if he just got on the ground when Shelby told him to. Why is that so hard to do anymore - cop asks you to get on the ground, and you get on the ground? Is that where we are now, that we no long have to follow orders from the cops? I mean, do you agree Crutcher was not following the order of the cops and was putting himself deeper and deeper into a bad situation?
He absolutely put himself at risk of some over reacting cop ####ing up and killing him.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Back in the day I had to take boarding team member training which included the practical pistol course multiple times. And this was in the days before body armor. I'm saying based on the training I had and our rules of engagement, until a weapon was seen, lethal force would not have been authorized.
Well, I try to imagine myself being confronted with a REAL situation and how I might react. Even though I've never been a cop, I run through my mind all the time what I would do during something like a home invasion - would I wait to see a gun before I shoot? Or do I, out of self preservation shoot knowing I could quite possibly miss the weapon? These people have to make split decisions. Unlike in the training course where you know you aren't going to get shot, their conditions are REAL. And they are still human, with adrenaline and fear, just like the rest of us.

Again, I'm not taking sides, I want this to play out in our courts. As far as I understand it, all that is really required is for Shelby to prove to the court that felt her life might have been in jeopardy. Perhaps someone can provide the rules of engagement - that a weapon must be in view before they can shoot; or all that's required is a belief that the person, based on their behavior and refusal to cooperate, and their movements that they feel lives might be in danger.
 
Last edited:

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Well, I try to imagine myself being confronted with a REAL situation and how I might react. Even though I've never been a cop, I run through my mind all the time what I would do during something like a home invasion - would I wait to see a gun before I shoot? Or do I, out of self preservation shoot knowing I could quite possibly miss the weapon? These people have to make split decisions. Unlike in the training course where you know you aren't going to get shot, their conditions are REAL. And they are still human, with adrenaline and fear, just like the rest of us.

Again, I'm taking sides, I want this to play out in our courts. As far as I understand it, all that is really required is for Shelby to prove to the court that felt her life might have been in jeopardy. Perhaps someone can provide the rules of engagement - that a weapon must be in view before they can shoot; or all that's required is a belief that the person, based on their behavior and refusal to cooperate, and their movements that they feel lives might be in danger.
She's just like the rest of us yet she is a highly trained expert?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
This doesn't even deserve an answer. You're smarter than this.
I'm smart enough to know when a cop over reacts and ####s up when I see it. You're the one calling her the highly trained expert who killed a guy for, as it turns out, making her fear scared. She with the partner, drawn and aimed gun, vest and high training.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Well, why even bother with the courts. You should just march on over to Tulsa and let them know it's settled: GUILTY!
I've really got to try and limit this opinion business I seem so attracted to when I'm engaging in the high court of opinion forums.
 

tom88

Well-Known Member
I'm not asking for cops to get shot first. She shot too soon. A second? 2? Don't know. As is, no weapon was found so, he was never a threat to them and wasn't going to be as far what she thought he was doing. She ####ed up, at least she did if was want a society where people don't get killed for what this guy did.
They did find a weapon......it's a big 6000 pound vehicle that he was driving on the wrong side of the roadway. I don't know if the windows were open or closed, but I do know I saw him reach toward the vehicle. I also know there are a lot more people killed with vehicles each year than there are firearms.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
Might as well put in my 2 cents.

Being the male Chauvinist pig that I am I have never been in favor of female cops to begin with.
As an old man I remember when cops had to be 5'10" or more to get on the force.
There were some good reasons for that.
A person tends to obey authorities bigger than them, and a man will tend to pay more attention to another large male than a small female.
I also believe in general women are more likely to shoot from fear than a man, but of course that is just a personal opinion, and does not take in the character of the male.

Now having laid myself open to all of the charges coming from TJ, lets get on with my views.
I sincerely hope that unlike baltimore where they tried to scapegoat 5 officers I hope this woman is not being charged to calm the crowds.

I don't think she is suspended without pay, I didn't see that.
She is innocent until proven guilty, she is entitled to a trial.
In any case her career is over as a police officer I believe.

I wish her a good attorney and a fair trial. After that she is on her own.
Let the jury decide.
 

tom88

Well-Known Member
Back in the day I had to take boarding team member training which included the practical pistol course multiple times. And this was in the days before body armor. I'm saying based on the training I had and our rules of engagement, until a weapon was seen, lethal force would not have been authorized.
That is not the standard. The standard is would a reasonable person believe his actions put another person in fear of their life or the life of others? So looking at the totality of this event, knowing this guy was driving that SUV while likely high on a mind altering drug and driving on a major highway against traffic, I think it will be pretty difficult to convince 12 people that his actions were reasonable and that based on her training her actions were unreasonable.
 

tom88

Well-Known Member
Might as well put in my 2 cents.

Being the male Chauvinist pig that I am I have never been in favor of female cops to begin with.
As an old man I remember when cops had to be 5'10" or more to get on the force.
There were some good reasons for that.
A person tends to obey authorities bigger than them, and a man will tend to pay more attention to another large male than a small female.
I also believe in general women are more likely to shoot from fear than a man, but of course that is just a personal opinion, and does not take in the character of the male.
Darren Wilson was 6' 210.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
That is not the standard. The standard is would a reasonable person believe his actions put another person in fear of their life or the life of others? So looking at the totality of this event, knowing this guy was driving that SUV while likely high on a mind altering drug and driving on a major highway against traffic, I think it will be pretty difficult to convince 12 people that his actions were reasonable and that based on her training her actions were unreasonable.
The partner, standing right next to her, same time and place, didn't think it was reasonable to shoot the guy. He thought it was reasonable to tazed him first.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
I've really got to try and limit this opinion business I seem so attracted to when I'm engaging in the high court of opinion forums.
Well, you certainly wouldn't make it to the jury since you've already made up your mind. You seem to have very little interest in that whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Well, you certainly wouldn't make it to the jury since you've already made up your mind. You seem to have very little interest in that whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept.
She's gonna make it. Don't worry. Then she'll have a nice, fair trail and be convicted of manslaughter.

In my opinion.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
Darren Wilson was 6' 210.
Yes, and he was strong enough to keep a thug from taking his weapon and turn that weapon on the thug ,Could this woman have done the same?
He is alive and living in seclusion, his career gone.

We can argue this all day , It won't make any difference the old days are over. There was a time when this officer would never have been charged.
Right or wrong it's a new day Police face new problems. Soon we will face having no one who wants to be an officer.
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
You make it sound like it's more your desire.
No matter what, she has a very tough row to hoe, and I think she will be somebody's personal ho after the trial. Doesn't look good for her. This trial will not be a dog and pony show like in Baltimore.
 

tom88

Well-Known Member
Yes, and he was strong enough to keep a thug from taking his weapon and turn that weapon on the thug ,Could this woman have done the same?
He is alive and living in seclusion, his career gone.

We can argue this all day , It won't make any difference the old days are over. There was a time when this officer would never have been charged.
Right or wrong it's a new day Police face new problems. Soon we will face having no one who wants to be an officer.
What does that have to do with this statement you made;

A person tends to obey authorities bigger than them, and a man will tend to pay more attention to another large male than a small female.
You said that right? You do realize there was a pretty large male on the scene of the Tulsa shooting who was issuing the same orders right?
 

tom88

Well-Known Member
No matter what, she has a very tough row to hoe, and I think she will be somebody's personal ho after the trial. Doesn't look good for her. This trial will not be a dog and pony show like in Baltimore.
IMHO I think it will have the same result as the dog and pony show of Baltimore.
 
Top