Turkey Accepts First Shipment Of S-400 System

[Yooper]

Turkey's Newly Delivered S-400 Air Defense System Threatens To Shoot Down Relations With U.S. (Updated)

The U.S. decision to expel Turkey from the F-35 program looks to be past the point of no return and more sanctions will likely follow.

www.thedrive.com

What a mess. A long time coming, Turkey presents NATO (in general) and the U.S. (specifically) with some very difficult challenges for the foreseeable future.

As pertains to Turkey directly, I'm floored that it believes it can trust Russia delivering the goods. My sense is that Russia has sabotaged this gear in some form or fashion (i.e., won't work as advertised, malware, snooping capabilities, etc.).

What is most interesting is that Erdogan's moves have flipped Turkey on its head (when viewed through a long-term historical lens).

First, Russia and Turkey have been centuries-long adversaries (going back at least 500 years). Adversarial to a degree magnitudes greater than Turkey's historical friction with the West.

Second, Turkey was always considered the better of the two Aegean "problem children" (with some truth to the joke that Greece was only admitted to NATO so that neither Turkey nor Greece attacked each other; at least directly).

Third, Turkey, Iran, and Israel are, geopolitically, natural allies (aligned against the Arabs). Since the Iranian Revolution Iran became hostile to Israel/the West and now with Erdogan Turkey. We live in strange times when there is a rapproachment of the Arabs (at least some of them) and Israel against Iran. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see a reunion of Turkey and Iran but on the Russian team.

Erdogan will no doubt say the Kurds remain a great source of tension, but that's more than a bit of BS (meaning, the Kurds are a sticking point, but a very manageable one). I'm sure he will also continue to claim the EU's relectance to admit Turkey means Turkey must go it alone. But it's all maskirovka (used in the more general sense); this is every bit Erdogan wanting to be bigger than Ataturk.

Who (Ataturk) must be spinning in his grave....

To be a fly on the wall in the NSC or in Brussels/Mons Turkey working group discussions.

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[GURPS]

What is most interesting is that Erdogan's moves have flipped Turkey on its head (when viewed through a long-term historical lens).

As Turkey moves more Authoritarian and Islamic [ did I repeat myself]

I'm not surprised they are 'shopping for friends elsewhere ..... after 75 yrs of Cold War, I'm done with Europe ... let them deal with Russia and the Middle East ...

as I under stand it we are OIL Independent and with most of our 'stuff is coming from the far east
Europe can sort out Europe

 

[Gilligan]

Cdr. Salamander had a piece on how NATO is perceived in key ally countries by their populations. Turkey might as well be the hell out of NATO at this point...

 

[Gilligan]

The Egyptians buy their military hardware where ever they can find it cheapest. Their naval fleet and fleet equipment is comprised quite the international mix of stuff accordingly. I've read that they are going to buy the helicopters to populate their two new assault carriers from Russia. (Word is, it's the same mix of equipment the Russians were going to base on the carriers if they'd been able to take delivery). So it's not unprecedented to have close(r) allies buy hardware from countries we are at odds with, like Russia and China..

 

[Yooper]

Cdr. Salamander had a piece on how NATO is perceived in key ally countries by their populations. Turkey might as well be the hell out of NATO at this point...

Read that as well. Very interesting.

So it's not unprecedented to have close(r) allies buy hardware from countries we are at odds with, like Russia and China..

True. And agree. But the rub, of course, is that Egypt's not in NATO but Turkey is.

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[Gilligan]

Read that as well. Very interesting.


True. And agree. But the rub, of course, is that Egypt's not in NATO but Turkey is.

--- End of line (MCP)

Technically speaking...however, safe to say there is more of us over here directly supporting the Egyptian Navy than there is in Turkey. Been that way for a long time.

So there are the "paper" alliances..and there are the ones functioning at a practical level.

 

[Yooper]

Technically speaking...however, safe to say there is more of us over here directly supporting the Egyptian Navy than there is in Turkey. Been that way for a long time.

So there are the "paper" alliances..and there are the ones functioning at a practical level.

Excellent point.

Can't help but think this is one of reasons behind the Trump administration's push on NATO members' low contributions, etc. That NATO is slowly turning into a Paper Tiger.

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[Gilligan]

Excellent point.

Can't help but think this is one of reasons behind the Trump administration's push on NATO members' low contributions, etc. That NATO is slowly turning into a Paper Lion.

--- End of line (MCP)

Fully agree. Meanwhile, I'm going out from Abu Qir to watch them bang away at some targets with the 76mm rapid fire tomorrow. I'll try to get some pics..

 

[GURPS]

That NATO is slowly turning into a Paper Tiger.

Could Germany Seriously defend itself ?
Last I heard / Read Germany had turned its military into a 'social program' for employment and the quality of The Troops was way down.

 

[Yooper]

Could Germany Seriously defend itself ?
Last I heard / Read Germany had turned its military into a 'social program' for employment and the quality of The Troops was way down.

Absolutely spot-on correct. From both news reports and friends living over there I've read that there are a number of units using broomsticks for rifle, cars for tanks, etc. Aircraft are grounded; the navy ship's can't sail. While at the same time relying more and more on Russia to supply Germany's energy needs (the German Green Energy program has been an economic catastrophe). All in all, an unmitigated disaster.

^^^This^^^ is what Trump has been railing against. And rightly so.

--- End of line (MCP)

 

[GURPS]

^^^This^^^ is what Trump has been railing against. And rightly so.

 

[GURPS]

US to impose sanctions on Turkey for purchase of Russian-made S-400 — report

The US has repeatedly warned it would impose economic sanctions and kick Turkey out of the F-35 stealth fighter jet program if Ankara does not drop its S-400 purchase.





I would definitely NOT be selling Turkey F-35 Fighters