Ukraine / Russian War
- Thread starter GURPS
- Start date
The West PROMISED Russia NATO would NOT Expand East including ... or join the EU
what happened in the past 25 yrs .... NATO Expanded East .. Putain Said Don't Do that
IMHO there is NO Reason for Ukraine to join NATO or the EU frankly Ukraine is too CORRUPT to survive in the EU
what happened in the past 25 yrs .... NATO Expanded East .. Putain Said Don't Do that
IMHO there is NO Reason for Ukraine to join NATO or the EU frankly Ukraine is too CORRUPT to survive in the EU
They also promised Ukraine to protect them in exchange for relinquishing their nuclear weapons. I think it was called the Budapest Memorandum.
PeoplesElbow
Well-Known Member
Too corrupt for the EU? Isn't that like saying too evil for satan?
Russia is the MOST INVADED country in the History of the World .... Russians are paranoid for a reason
This up for debate Pro Ukraine talking heads - the US NEVER Promised Russia ... but reviews of meeting notes and language / conversations going back and forth that was inferred
Putin has watched NATO Expand after being PROMISED NO Expansion .... what did you really think was going to happen
Georgia was going to join NATO in 2008 ... what did Putin do, he invaded Georgia to throw the area into chaos - NO NATO
Actually No ... I saw something recently that was not actually the case
Ukraine NEVER HAD ACCESS OR CONTROL over Russian Nukes ... sure the Nukes were in Ukraine, but CONTROL was in Moscow
As Usual WORDING is everything
Fact Check: Did Ukraine give up nukes for Russia, U.S. security guarantees?
Amid calls for peace talks and "security guarantees" for Russia, Ukrainian officials have referenced the Budapest Memorandum in retort, but what was it?
www.newsweek.com
Under the agreement, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine became the parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, leaving their nuclear arsenals to Russia.
In exchange, they were promised that Russia would:
- Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
- Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.
- Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by the signatory of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
- Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
- Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against the signatory.
- Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.
In fact, as the agreement was taking shape, U.S. State Department lawyers highlighted a distinction between "security guarantee" and "security assurance," with the former entailing a military response by the co-signatory countries if one of the sides were to violate the agreement.
The parties eventually settled on softer language in the English version of the agreement, offering Ukraine "security assurance" that would simply specify the non-violation of these parties' territorial integrity.
That decision caused some consternation in Kyiv, which was initially reluctant to sign but backed down after U.S. President Bill Clinton implied that such refusal could damage bilateral Ukraine-U.S. relations, according to those involved in the negotiations.
Notably, the word "guarantees" remained in the titles of both Russian and Ukrainian translations of the agreement, though an equivalent of "assurances" was then used in the body of the documents, adding to the confusion.
EU Corruption is vastly different that Ukraine Oligarchs and Mafia Criminals - the reasons some western companies had so many BIO Research Labs in Eastern Europe was lax laws and regulations and gov officials could be paid to look the other way
Regarding the Proxy War, SecDef Hegseth delivered even more bad news. We don’t agree with any of your dumb Proxy War ideas.
CLIP: Hegseth shoots down Zelensky’s so-called “peace formula” (0:45).
In short, Hegseth eviscerated all of Zelensky’s insane peace-plan demands, which of course were unthinkingly embraced by Europe’s NATO partners. First, the Secretary told them in no uncertain terms that Ukraine will never join NATO. Conversation over. Likewise, he told them no U.S. troops would ever be deployed to Ukraine as peacekeepers. If the EU wants peacekeepers in Ukraine, they must do it themselves, outside of NATO, and pay for it all on their own.
NATO membership was a deliberate obstacle to any peace agreement with Russia. But it was worse than that. Biden’s relentless brinksmanship about Ukraine’s NATO membership brought us to the precipice of nuclear apocalypse.
☕️💗 MY VALENTINE ☙ Friday, February 14, 2025 ☙ C&C NEWS 💗🦠
RFK's confirmation—what comes next; MAHA now official US policy; secret Supreme Court case opens door for Trump; reciprocal tariff plan tilts scales; Dems in disarray; major Proxy War news; more.
www.coffeeandcovid.com
Finally, as if all that weren’t enough bad news, and as if the Europeans weren’t already grappling with a financial existential crisis in the form of Trump’s reciprocal tarrifs plan, CNN ran more bad news in the form of a story concluding that U.S. relations with Europe will never be the same — after one single phone call:
CNN began its article generously describing Wednesday’s momentous events as “two geopolitical thunderclaps.”
If there was one mindless, diplomacy-destroying mantra, endlessly repeated, that by itself explains the pitiful failure to end the Ukraine war much earlier, it was this stupid slogan: Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. What that meant was, nobody talks to Putin by themselves. As a result, Joe Biden only spoke to Russian President Putin exactly zero times in almost four years.
It wasn’t just President Cabbage. We didn’t even send a negotiating team to Russia. Yet the whole time, the Russians were practically begging us to negotiate.
So yesterday, Trump shattered all the nebulous anti-negotiating rules by picking up the telephone by himself and talking to his counterpart, Russian President Vladimir Putin. According to the Russian readout, they spoke for ninety minutes. You can imagine how, after almost four years of silence, they had a lot to discuss.
The best description of how furious the sidelined Europeans were is right in the headline: the relationship will never be the same. It was a betrayal of trust! Trump cheated on us!
They’re not breaking up with us, not yet, but we’d better plan for a polar vortex of a Valentine’s Day. The romance is over.
Because a successful resolution of the Proxy War crisis affects us all, I decided to reprint the whole report from President Trump that he posted to Truth Social about his call with Putin:
Later Trump also called Zelensky. According to reports, the U.S. President spoke to Ukraine’s Martial Law Administrator for ten minutes.
So.
You’ll note that, in his post, Trump announced Special Envoy Steve Witkoff will now lead the negotiations. Witkoff is on a mediating roll, having just negotiated the Israel-Hamas cease-fire, which the Biden Administration attempted for two years but utterly failed.
Could you imagine? Imagine how wonderful it would be if Trump settled the Proxy War conflict, stopped the dying on both sides, and at the same time got all our money back?
It seems appropriate to close this massive post with a quote often attributed to Lenin (although nobody knows for sure): There are decades when nothing happens, and then there are weeks when decades happen.
We are living through weeks trying to keep up while decades of winning unfold. From time to time, take a moment to gratefully reflect on how dire and irresolvable it all seemed for so long. Then last year, we bravely began to hope. But now, we’ve moved way beyond hope. This is something vastly bigger than hope. This is the ride of our lives.
☕️💗 MY VALENTINE ☙ Friday, February 14, 2025 ☙ C&C NEWS 💗🦠
RFK's confirmation—what comes next; MAHA now official US policy; secret Supreme Court case opens door for Trump; reciprocal tariff plan tilts scales; Dems in disarray; major Proxy War news; more.
www.coffeeandcovid.com
Unfortunately, at the same meeting, JD Vance said nothing is off the table.
Regarding the Proxy War, SecDef Hegseth delivered even more bad news. We don’t agree with any of your dumb Proxy War ideas.
CLIP: Hegseth shoots down Zelensky’s so-called “peace formula” (0:45).
In short, Hegseth eviscerated all of Zelensky’s insane peace-plan demands, which of course were unthinkingly embraced by Europe’s NATO partners. First, the Secretary told them in no uncertain terms that Ukraine will never join NATO. Conversation over. Likewise, he told them no U.S. troops would ever be deployed to Ukraine as peacekeepers. If the EU wants peacekeepers in Ukraine, they must do it themselves, outside of NATO, and pay for it all on their own.
NATO membership was a deliberate obstacle to any peace agreement with Russia. But it was worse than that. Biden’s relentless brinksmanship about Ukraine’s NATO membership brought us to the precipice of nuclear apocalypse.
☕️💗 MY VALENTINE ☙ Friday, February 14, 2025 ☙ C&C NEWS 💗🦠
RFK's confirmation—what comes next; MAHA now official US policy; secret Supreme Court case opens door for Trump; reciprocal tariff plan tilts scales; Dems in disarray; major Proxy War news; more.
Clem72
Well-Known Member
Bro, Italy and Greece would like to have a word.
OK So Ukraine turned down Trump's Offer for 50% of Rare Earth Production as a payback of all the weapons and cash given to Ukraine
Euro-crats are praising the rejection [ I'm thinking the EU wants the Minerals and an FU to America and Trump ]
Progressives are
Over a potential Quid Pro Quo and ofc how dare we demand ANYTHING From Saint Zlen
Personally F Ukraine this has ALWAYS been a Regional European Problem .. same with NATO
Put the screws to Zelensky claw back AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE, Send ALL of the Refugees back to Europe or even Kiv
I'm NOT an Isolationist, but I am sick and damn tired of Policing the world .... unless you want to shoot Muslim Slavers in South Sudan, then all scorched earth on them mother forkers
Euro-crats are praising the rejection [ I'm thinking the EU wants the Minerals and an FU to America and Trump ]
Progressives are
Over a potential Quid Pro Quo and ofc how dare we demand ANYTHING From Saint ZlenPersonally F Ukraine this has ALWAYS been a Regional European Problem .. same with NATO
Put the screws to Zelensky claw back AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE, Send ALL of the Refugees back to Europe or even Kiv
I'm NOT an Isolationist, but I am sick and damn tired of Policing the world .... unless you want to shoot Muslim Slavers in South Sudan, then all scorched earth on them mother forkers
Zelenskyy Says Ukraine Will Not Accept Any Peace Deal Made Without Kyiv’s Involvement
“Ukraine regards any negotiations on Ukraine without Ukraine as ones that have no result, and we cannot recognize ... any agreements about us without us, and will not recognize such agreements,” Zelenskyy said on Feb. 17 during a trip to the United Arab Emirates.
The Ukrainian president also urged the inclusion of a special European representative in the negotiations, emphasizing that the process should involve countries willing to take responsibility for security guarantees, provide assistance, invest in Ukraine’s reconstruction, and help prevent further Russian aggression.
Zelenskyy’s remarks came ahead of a planned meeting between U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio and his Russian counterpart, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, on Feb. 18, for direct talks on ending the war.