Veteran's Family Sues Police, Counties

[Lexib_]

If you read the report you would have known that one shot was into the air and 'rained down' on the police car. The other was into the ground. By the way, one of the county police officer's gun went off while he was securing it. Perhaps if you read the total report (aproximately 1400 pages) and listened to the audio you could arm yourself with some knowledge and stop making blanket statements. Jamie was shot by the Maryland State Police, who had been on the scene a little over an hour. Since they couldn't get him to come out of the house by firing, repeatedly, tear gas their next plan was to blow a hole on the end of the house and march through like Grant took Richmond.
All of this for a very sick and emotional man who asked to left alone. Now if you are concerned about the Maryland State police who were there ask them why they used the less protective 'peace keeper' vechicle instead of one of the other two at their disposal. Why? I think because it had a big seal of the State of Maryland and made for better coverage on CNN. If I was the spouse of one of the officers in that 'peace keeper' I'd be asking why. By the way, the FORMER head of the Maryland State Police was relieved of duty following the Fritz report. UMM. I wonder why.

Are you kidding me? Hutchins was not replaced yet, because Gov. O'Malley had not chose someone to take over as superintendant. Hutchins was chosen by former Gov. Erlich.

 

[lostinstmarys]

Lost,

There is a VA doctor in Charlotte Hall, Doctor Henry is his name I believe. If going through VA for assistance, they require a person to travel to DC and register at the main office, once registered and approved, they are scheduled to see one of the local mental health doctors. Appointments are generally scheduled within 2 weeks from the first visit to the VA office in Washington, DC. (now sometimes this can take longer, 30 days)

I am not doubting the family had a difficult time getting an appointment for mental health services, it happens but it seems that if going through VA, there are more options than just Pathways. None of them are fast acting and that is just the way it is. Had he come out of that house, the police would have most likely done an emergency committal and held him until mental health services could be provided.

I just feel that once a gun shot was said to have been heard by a family member, there was a clear understanding that he would use a weapon. I don't feel they did everything wrong or right for that matter but as far as the police taking aggressive action, taking a shot, I just feel they did what they felt they had to do. I think if anger needs to be projected somewhere (which in this situation the anger has to go somewhere), it should be projected towards the Army for not listening to prior cries for help and providing that in a timely manner.

I do feel that Jamie's life will not be lost in vain, because there are changes already seen in the Southern Maryland area where mental health services are concerned, especially when the VA is requested to step up to the plate.

I guess the question for those who feel the police acted with extreme aggression, what should the police have done? What role should they have taken once they arrived at the scene?

Pandora, thank you for a well constructed comment. They are few and far between regarding this issue. As a member of Jamie's family I bear witness from the time Jamie received the recall letter to the point we are at now. I've read the report (three reams of paper) and heard the audio of the standoff. I've met with the States Attorney and read his report. After the police learned that he was a combat veteran and had guns in the house (for hunting) all of a sudden he was treated as the enemy. He was put in 'military' mode. He felt that he was being hunted. How do you imagine he sustained breathing over eighty tear gas canisters being blown into the house? He was trained to by the Army. Our police have become paramilitary units. Shortly after Jamie's death a similar incident took place in Washington DC. The police just waited the man out. In Japan the man was taken out by the use of a fire hose. The Maryland State police had already placed explosives at the end of the house to blow a hole into it. The shots Jamie fired; 1 into the air that rained down on a police car, 2 shot into the ground. If he wanted to kill any of them he would have. He'd seen enough killing to last one hundred lifetimes. He wanted to be left alone. How was firing tear gas going to make him calm down? How was cutting the power and disconnecting his cell phone ease the situation? He was dispondent and depressed and I believe embarassed. I believe that he was taken back to Afhganistan during those hours. My husband was a Viet Nam vet - he'd hear a gun go off and hide under the table. Jamie led his men and was commended many times by the Army for his leadership. No amount of money can change what has happened, however our police departments must review the procedure, see the flaws, admit that unnecessary force was used and make corrections.

 

[lostinstmarys]

[/B]

Are you kidding me? Hutchins was not replaced yet, because Gov. O'Malley had not chose someone to take over as superintendant. Hutchins was chosen by former Gov. Erlich.

Yep, and Gov. O'Malley was just waiting to have a reason to make that happen sooner than later.

 

[Lexib_]

Pandora, thank you for a well constructed comment. They are few and far between regarding this issue. As a member of Jamie's family I bear witness from the time Jamie received the recall letter to the point we are at now. I've read the report (three reams of paper) and heard the audio of the standoff. I've met with the States Attorney and read his report. After the police learned that he was a combat veteran and had guns in the house (for hunting) all of a sudden he was treated as the enemy. He was put in 'military' mode. He felt that he was being hunted. How do you imagine he sustained breathing over eighty tear gas canisters being blown into the house? He was trained to by the Army. Our police have become paramilitary units. Shortly after Jamie's death a similar incident took place in Washington DC. The police just waited the man out. In Japan the man was taken out by the use of a fire hose. The Maryland State police had already placed explosives at the end of the house to blow a hole into it. The shots Jamie fired; 1 into the air that rained down on a police car, 2 shot into the ground. If he wanted to kill any of them he would have. He'd seen enough killing to last one hundred lifetimes. He wanted to be left alone. How was firing tear gas going to make him calm down? How was cutting the power and disconnecting his cell phone ease the situation? He was dispondent and depressed and I believe embarassed. I believe that he was taken back to Afhganistan during those hours. My husband was a Viet Nam vet - he'd hear a gun go off and hide under the table. Jamie led his men and was commended many times by the Army for his leadership. No amount of money can change what has happened, however our police departments must review the procedure, see the flaws, admit that unnecessary force was used and make corrections.

If I recall correctly... I believe there were reports that one or two deputys car's that had gunshots in the door..... That wouldn't happen by "raining down" onto a car.. Lets be a bit realistic here.

 

[Lexib_]

Yep, and Gov. O'Malley was just waiting to have a reason to make that happen sooner than later.

Thats not the case. Where are your facts to support that? The State Police Superintendant is an APPOINTED position. Which means that it is appointed by the gov. Hutchins knew he was out the door as soon as O'Malley was elected. O'Malley just had not made the decision on who he wanted as superintendant of the state police. Hutchins was kept until O'Malley found someone who he wanted not because of this situation.

 

[lostinstmarys]

If I recall correctly... There were one or two deputys car's that had gunshots in the door..... That wouldn't happen by "raining down" onto a car.. Lets be a bit realistic here.

Wrong, wrong. Why don't you really take the time and read the reports. One car had 'pings' from 'rain down'.

 

[lostinstmarys]

Thats not the case. Where are your facts to support that? The State Police Superintendant is an APPOINTED position. Which means that it is appointed by the gov. Hutchins knew he was out the door as soon as O'Malley was elected. O'Malley just had not made the decision on who he wanted as superintendant of the state police. Hutchins was kept until O'Malley found someone who he wanted not because of this situation.

That is not what I heard from the State's Attorney. Hutchins, like the captain of a ship when it runs aground, was relieved of his command. You really should do some fact finding of your own because your comments are clearly coming from a lack of true information that is a matter of public record.

 

[Lexib_]

That is not what I heard from the State's Attorney. Hutchins, like the captain of a ship when it runs aground, was relieved of his command. You really should do some fact finding of your own because your comments are clearly coming from a lack of true information that is a matter of public record.

Ok... I will say this again

That’s not the case. Where are your facts to support that? The State Police Superintendent is an APPOINTED position. That is a "matter of public record and a fact” Which means that it is appointed by the Gov. Hutchins knew he would probably be out of job when O'Malley was elected. He just didn't know when. O'Malley just had not made the decision on who he wanted as superintendent of the state police. Hutchins was kept until O'Malley found someone who he wanted not because of this situation. I highly doubt that the states attorney office is privy to why or how Gov O'Malley makes decisions on his cabinet. Sheridan had been rumored to be Hutchins replacement ever since O'Malley was elected. That was before this situation happened. So.... not sure where you are getting your information.... Common sense tells you that O'Malley is a new gov.. He is not going to keep cabinet members from a previous government. Gov. O'Malley chose to replace Hutchins with a person of his own choosing. It's that simple.

 

[Roberta]

Arm yourself with some knowledge before making such a broad statement.

Getting RICH off the situtation is not going to change the past or bring him back. I stand by my statement.

 

[itsbob]

Lost,

There is a VA doctor in Charlotte Hall, Doctor Henry is his name I believe. If going through VA for assistance, they require a person to travel to DC and register at the main office, once registered and approved, they are scheduled to see one of the local mental health doctors. Appointments are generally scheduled within 2 weeks from the first visit to the VA office in Washington, DC. (now sometimes this can take longer, 30 days)

XDepends on the situation.. if you are seperated from Active Duty (discharged) and have been diagnosed with a mental illness, or you say you suffer for some ailment linked to your service (physical or mental) they make you an appointment on both sides. One while you are on active duty to be assessed(seperation physical), and the other on the VA side so you can be assessed for disability.

From what I understand, and I don't know much of the story.. he was a reservist?? Did a stint of active duty, and ws still in the Reserves, he never actually was discharged, just placed back into the active Reserves?

Maybe we need more details.. what was his job in the Reserves, what was his MOS? What EXACTLY did he do in Afghanistan? What kind of reserve unit was he in?

BUT, bottom line, vet or not, you shoot weapons when you know cops are out and about, and you come out of the house with a gun in your hands.. they shouldn't have to wait for you to make the first shot. Until I hear evidence otherwise, from what I've read, have to side with the cops.

And "raining Down" bullets.?? What would the chances be, if you shot a gun in the air that that ONE bullet would bounce off of a car, let alone two or three?

 

[itsbob]

Wrong, wrong. Why don't you really take the time and read the reports. One car had 'pings' from 'rain down'.

Well, since you have the reports, why don't you post them so we can read them...

Or upload them to a webpage and give us the link.

 

[Lexib_]

Well, since you have the reports, why don't you post them so we can read them...

Or upload them to a webpage and give us the link.

I'm not sure that there is a link that shows the report in its entirety. I don't think the public was privy to all of the information in the report for security reasons of course.

 

[itsbob]

I'm not sure that there is a link that shows the report in its entirety. I don't think the public was privy to all of the information in the report for security reasons of course.

So they can say whatever they want as far as what's on the report, and there's no way to prove or disprove.. how handy is that??

Or are they just repeating what they've 'heard' and haven't really seen or read the reports themselves??

 

[Lexib_]

So they can say whatever they want as far as what's on the report, and there's no way to prove or disprove.. how handy is that??

Or are they just repeating what they've 'heard' and haven't really seen or read the reports themselves??

I guess so... Everything probably wouldn't be available until the legal process runs it's course. At least thats what my thoughts are. I highly doubt that they would allow a report like that to be released to the public in its entirety knowing that there was a civil/legal case going to be filed.

 

[AK-74me]

Why does it matter if the shots came raining down on them? If it is percieved that a gun man is taking shots at you, from the police officer's perspective wouldn't you be ready to shoot back at what you percieved was a threat?

And why does it matter how long the State police had been on the scene, you make it seem like they called in the death squad to end it. It takes the STATE team sometime to assemble. If the threat had occured 5 minutes in vs. 13 hours in why does it matter, there are still requirements that have to be met to legally use deadly force, seems to me they were met.

 

[chernmax]

I've been a police officer since 1976. There is no such rule.

Rule, Principle, whatever, escalation of force was part of my training in law enforcement...

 

[AK-74me]

Rule, Principle, whatever, escalation of force was part of my training in law enforcement...

Use of force continuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[chernmax]

Use of force continuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks but Military police use the term Escalation of Force when I first went through formal training in 1984. The principles are the same...


Part of your link!!! Although various criminal justice agencies have developed different models of the continuum, there is no universal standard model.

These progressions rest on the premise that officers should escalate and de-escalate their level of force in response to the subject's actions.

 

[AK-74me]

Thanks but Military police use the term Escalation of Force when I first went through formal training in 1984. The principles are the same...


Part of your link!!! Although various criminal justice agencies have developed different models of the continuum, there is no universal standard model.

These progressions rest on the premise that officers should escalate and de-escalate their level of force in response to the subject's actions.

I was not disagreeing with you or saying you were wrong, just was linking to what I thought you may of been looking for.

 

[chernmax]

I was not disagreeing with you or saying you were wrong, just was linking to what I thought you may of been looking for.

I knew that, hence the Thanks up front!!!

Looks like Mr Policeman since 1976 needs to blow the dust off his Police procedure books...