"War made it worse" say the French

[SamSpade]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

You know, I don't get it.

Two things - one is, the assertion that oh my, there was NO terrorism in Iraq *before* the war. Yeah. I used to live in a mob-dominated neighborhood, and wouldn't you know it, there was very little *crime* there! Damn French.

The second is this attitude if, if we'd only just left those nice terrorists alone, they wouldn't be causing all this trouble, at least, not to *US*. Yeah, they'd be killing *Americans*, those useful idiots we pretend to be friends with, but at least it wouldn't be OUR guys getting killed.

Now I know I'm basically preaching to the choir here, but don't people everywhere cherish their liberty enough they'd rather *DIE* than let someone push them around? If a gang was terrorizing my neighborhood, what kind of people would keep hiding in a corner, hoping they'd go away - and BLAME THE GUY who went out and fought them?

'S ok. The French have pizzed off enough Muslims with their head scarf ban to earn their own terrorist act.

 

[ceo_pte]

Originally posted by SamSpade
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

You know, I don't get it.

Two things - one is, the assertion that oh my, there was NO terrorism in Iraq *before* the war. Yeah. I used to live in a mob-dominated neighborhood, and wouldn't you know it, there was very little *crime* there! Damn French.

The second is this attitude if, if we'd only just left those nice terrorists alone, they wouldn't be causing all this trouble, at least, not to *US*. Yeah, they'd be killing *Americans*, those useful idiots we pretend to be friends with, but at least it wouldn't be OUR guys getting killed.

Now I know I'm basically preaching to the choir here, but don't people everywhere cherish their liberty enough they'd rather *DIE* than let someone push them around? If a gang was terrorizing my neighborhood, what kind of people would keep hiding in a corner, hoping they'd go away - and BLAME THE GUY who went out and fought them?

'S ok. The French have pizzed off enough Muslims with their head scarf ban to earn their own terrorist act.

I agree, but apparently some of these nations have a different opinion on the issue. They would just assume ignore them and hope they go away, but we know better.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sam...

but don't people everywhere cherish their liberty enough they'd rather *DIE* than let someone push them around

...a resounding NO.

"Give me liberty or give me death" is a patriotic slogan that has, in one form or another, been around ever since we began oppressing one another.

Field Marshall Petain, the hero of the "Great War" for France gave up all of northern France to the Nazi blitzgrieg and governed the rest of France as what was known as "Vichy" for the rest of WWII only retaining power by promising no hostilities towards Germany. He made a practical choice.

Our founders heard Patrick Henry first hand but near majorities of colonialists either sat on the fence or actively supported Great Britain either to the end or until it was evident they were supporting the losing side; then they switched sides. Until then, they said things like the French do; "George, you guys are making things MORE dangerous than they were!".

One of the first great hero's of our Revolution, Benedict Arnold, dragged canon from the Great Lakes to Boston, ensuring that the rebellion would even get off the ground. Absent his actions, the war may have been over before it began. His actions later are infamy. He made choices, good and bad.

"Suicide" or, more accurately, 'homicide' bombers ascribe fairly accurately to 'liberty or death'. They give their lives for what they believe in. I will bet you their are voices in every militant group in the world arguing that 9/11 made things worse for terrorists in general worldwide and that it was a mistake.

The US is rare as far as nations go. One of a kind I'd say. We like Patrick Henry's attitude and we see ourselves as his heirs in spirit and fight FOR THE RIGHT reasons, freedom. Washington and many others DID risk all, including their lives, for an idea. So, it's not an empty slogan. It was the right idea at the right time.

Same thing happened in 1861. people chose risking (and losing) EVERYTHING for an idea. Some of these people were direct descendents of the founders and many in the South viewed our Civil War as the Second Revolution.

Hell, look how deivided we are as a nation today.

I'm not meaning to give a history lesson which you certainly don't need but just to illustrate the concept as a practical matter.

The French were in bed with Saddam. They have a history of defeat and making the best of bad situations. In the spirit of the Bastille, they know they are on the wrong side of this issue but no one is knocking over the Eiffel Tower and making them face reality. they can deny reality until then. For them, things ARE worse. Plus they certainly fear being on the wrong side, when all is said and done, in changing the world for the better. They almost have to say "it'll never work"...for now.

Clinton was scared of breaking anyones 'civil rights' or violating international law in dealing with 4 major terror attacks against us. He rolled over for North Korea.

Spain IS socialist for all intents and purposes. The 'conservatives' who ran things for awhile were rather an anomoly. That doesn't mean this new guy will be good or bad, just more typical of Spain than US style conservativism.

The Shiites in Southern Iraq were spurned to fight for liberty or death in 1991-92 and Goerge the I bailed on them. Same with the Kurds.

Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs. Cuban Patriots hate Democrats to this day for that betrayal.

It is amazing, actually, things are going as well as they are in Iraq.

In time, when enough people die for something that is gone, Husseins Iraq, there will grow enough patriots in Iraq who will see all there is to gain for more than just themselves in winning a liberated Iraq.

Once they can see the goal and taste it and feel it, like Henry, then many will be willing to die for it so that their children can have it.

We and our allies including Iraq are getting there and France and Spain and most of the Democratic party are on the outside looking in. We're hearing the last whelps and pewling, I think, before they start to get on board to claim a share of the prize.

They will cheer loudest during the victory parades and celebrations.

 

[itsbob]

Originally posted by SamSpade
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...print.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

You know, I don't get it.

Two things - one is, the assertion that oh my, there was NO terrorism in Iraq *before* the war. Yeah. I used to live in a mob-dominated neighborhood, and wouldn't you know it, there was very little *crime* there! Damn French.

The second is this attitude if, if we'd only just left those nice terrorists alone, they wouldn't be causing all this trouble, at least, not to *US*. Yeah, they'd be killing *Americans*, those useful idiots we pretend to be friends with, but at least it wouldn't be OUR guys getting killed.

Now I know I'm basically preaching to the choir here, but don't people everywhere cherish their liberty enough they'd rather *DIE* than let someone push them around? If a gang was terrorizing my neighborhood, what kind of people would keep hiding in a corner, hoping they'd go away - and BLAME THE GUY who went out and fought them?

'S ok. The French have pizzed off enough Muslims with their head scarf ban to earn their own terrorist act.

If I recollect, like in Afghanistan, Al Queda ran like the MOB.. you supported them, paid them protection money and provided support for them they left you alone.. SO if you were one of FEW middle Eastern countries that didn't have terrorist (other then their own leadership) troubles.. that should be a CLUE!!

 

[Bruzilla]

Freedom and defending freedom... I used to think that people in the US would rather die than be pushed around by despots or sacrifice their freedoms, but now I'm rethinking that. More and more, I see the old standard of "millions for defense, but not one penny for tribute" going the way of the TV antenna.

I repeatedly hear all about the 500+ troops that have dies in Iraq, and how that causes concern for the war and it's aftermath. 500+ troops... think about that. The US Navy lost over 700 men to a typhoon during World War II. 237,000 Allied troops were lost during the Normany invasion. Over 12,000 troops were lost during the invasion of Okinawa. Now, the loss of over 500 is causing about 50% of the US population to say that the war was a bad idea and that we need to bail out of Iraq. Forget the fact that we need to get the Middle East under some kind of control in order to prevent future wars, they can't get over the fact that we've lost 500+ troops. Can you imagine what the world would be like if we had thought that way during World War II or Korea, or even Vietnam? Many enemies have looked at us and seen a lot of fat, weak, wimpy folks who don't have the stomach to protect themselves or others... and more and more it's looking like they are right.

As for freedoms, look at what we've recently lost in the name of crime prevention or homeland security. The rights of gun owners have been slowly whittled away over the past 40 years. And the rights to freely practice religion are going away as anti-Muslim hysteria has progressed.

Would Americans rather DIE than see their freedoms challenged or taken away? I think that if you can generate enough paranoia, more and more Americans will hand away their freedoms on a platter.

 

[SamSpade]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
Would Americans rather DIE than see their freedoms challenged or taken away? I think that if you can generate enough paranoia, more and more Americans will hand away their freedoms on a platter.

I still believe that most of the anti-war rhetoric is just a venue for people who hate Bush to hang their hat on. Since his election - and the anti-Bush crowd calls it "selection" - there've been numerous 'issues' where Bush has been shot at. The DUI, his daughters, the "real" result of the election, Enron, the economy, California's energy problem, accusations of *heroin* smuggling, the Kyoto protocol - jeez, it never frickin' ended. I have relatives who are CONVINCED he orchestrated 9/11 HIMSELF, just to gain popularity in the polls!

There are a lot of people who just hate the guy. The war gives a lot of convenient fuel, even though most of it isn't very substantial.

Why do I think this? There were massive demonstrations against the war in Iraq, but closer inspection showed that many in the street were part of the whole anti- World Bank thing. Why were they there? Because they'd originally scheduled their march, and had their date trumped. So they marched anyway. Similar kinds of things happened around the country. My own discussions with peopel around the world revealed that people were angry at the US being the world's policeman, with Americans pushing their pop culture, movies and junk food, with American arrogance - and so, they protest "George Bush", because a march was organized.

They were angry at *America*, but had been so for decades.

Those deaths - they're not overwhelmingly high, but the tactic has not been how tragic such deaths have been - but that they are actually unnecessary. It took hundreds of thousands to take France back from the Nazis, because they were a clear threat to the world. The anger over the deaths in Iraq is from people who believe we should never have gone there.

 

[vraiblonde]

Some lib guy on TV said that when it's your son, brother, father or husband, ONE death is too many. And I can relate to that since I've got a kid over there. But when you think about the lives we've lost to terrorism over the years - those people were someone's loved one as well. At some point we have to make a sacrifice for the greater good.

How many cops were killed on the job last year? And do we just throw up our hands and say, "That's too many - let's get rid of laws so our men and women in blue won't be targeted by criminals"?

 

[Hessian]

History

You know folks...I really like reading your arguments, and your logic is commendable but....

It sort of diminishes your argument when facts get blended or misused. Believe it or not, I left a church that allowed a clown to give a stirring sermon that was filled with historical inaccuracies. I will not tolerate distortions coming out of a pulpit...radio, or newspaper is par for the course but NOT the pulpit.

Anyway:
*Knox dragged the cannons from Ft Ticonderoga to Boston in Late winter of 76....not Arnold (He was recovering from being wounded up in Quebec)

*237,000 were not lost on D-day or even in Normandy...that number may reflect the entire US losses of the war but that I am unsure. If you want the roughest day on a battlefield you got to look at the Somme in 1916...60,000+ K/C/W losses on the first day of the offensive.

Well, I hope I don't tick anyone about being nit-picky with the facts but...my job requires me to stay on my toes and read a lot!
And NEVER shrink or apologize for giving a history lesson...it is who we are, and why we hold on to these peculiar beliefs of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happyness.

Marietta Mansion: Marching through Time- Mid April: Skirmishes, drill, demonstrations from Roman times to Afghanistan...250+ reenactors- bring your kids, your vets, and anyone who likes the smell of black powder MID April...Glen Dale Maryland (10 min from Beltway)...who knows, you might meet a Hessian

 

[itsbob]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Some lib guy on TV said that when it's your son, brother, father or husband, ONE death is too many. And I can relate to that since I've got a kid over there. But when you think about the lives we've lost to terrorism over the years - those people were someone's loved one as well. At some point we have to make a sacrifice for the greater good.

How many cops were killed on the job last year? And do we just throw up our hands and say, "That's too many - let's get rid of laws so our men and women in blue won't be targeted by criminals"?

Maybe they shoudl count ALL of them.. Deaths attributed to war on terrorism.. 3000 +.. make it known WHY we are doing what we are doing..

Yanno eveyone talks about Bush's failures.. of which I thing they're full of chit.. but they NEVER talk about Afghanistan.. Hmmm, he must of been REAL successful there

 

[Larry Gude]

I stand corrected!

...Oopps...

Arnolds acheivement was on Lake Champlian

http://www.heroswelcome.com/Arnold.htm

My hasty bad. The argument still stands though that his contributions early on were critical over time.

The 237,000 is total US combat deaths in Europe, about 400,000 when the Pacific and all others are added.

US D day deaths were about 1,500 /5,000 total casualties counting wounded.

Bloodiest day in US military History: April 17, 1862. Over 20,000 casualties.

 

[Otter]

Re: History

Originally posted by Hessian
Marietta Mansion: Marching through Time- Mid April: Skirmishes, drill, demonstrations from Roman times to Afghanistan...250+ reenactors- bring your kids, your vets, and anyone who likes the smell of black powder MID April...Glen Dale Maryland (10 min from Beltway)...who knows, you might meet a Hessian

I grew up in Glenn Dale and I'm curious when they started making it Glendale and Glen Dale..(serious, this is not a poke at Hessian)