we can't afford to decieve ourselves anymore

[dazed&fallen]

Another test for the hopeless absence of evidence is what might be called Moral positioning. Does the opinion's defender seem a little precious on the topic? Perhaps it hasn't yet come to a fatwa, but she may in more subtle ways suggest that those who wish to keep friends in polite society ought to back off. Hurt feelings are in the cards if the matter is pushed too far.

Such sentiments are rarely roused in someone who can defend his position with sound argument and evidence. Tell someone his feet don't look a size nine and he will gladly prove you wrong by displaying an old shoe box or setting his feet against someone else's you accept are a nine. It is only when someone can not defend his opinion, and is not interested in believing the truth, that she will attempt to stifle discussion with good manners. Those who take religion, politics, and sex seriously do not adhere to the general prohibition of discussing these topics. And they don't take offense when they are shown to be wrong.

If you start to feel during a discussion that you are not so much incorrect as insensitive, then you are likely dealing with a respectable bigot.

Only a thug would expose him.

Do not allow your emotions on the matter to affect your clear judgement.

Jamie Whyte, Crimes against Logic

 

[Gwydion]

desiderata

 

[dazed&fallen]

I am familiar, what does that mean to you my friend?

 

[Mousebaby]

Don't want to sound like an idiot, but does it have something to do with the end of times. Because I believe it is upon us.

 

[dazed&fallen]

Don't want to sound like an idiot, but does it have something to do with the end of times. Because I believe it is upon us.

Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.


If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.


Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let not this blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore, be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams; it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.


Strive to be happy.


--- Max Ehrmann, 1927

 

[Gwydion]

Some of the -best- words you could ever possibly live by. Your post made reminded me of it. Be honest with yourself, be truthful with others, and understand....sometimes....your just not correct.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story.

 

[dazed&fallen]

Some of the -best- words you could ever possibly live by. Your post made reminded me of it. Be honest with yourself, be truthful with others, and understand....sometimes....your just not correct.

I understand. The point of the post is not to upset people. Why people get upset in religious discussions is beyond me.

People make presuppositions or leaps of faith without any sound reasoning behind them. Is it a virtue? or is it naivity?

I like to play devil's advocate, that's why I pitched this passage.

 

[Gwydion]

I wasn't meaning to offend you, I hope I didn't. I liked your post and replied with another of a similar attitude.

I believe people make leaps of faith in naivity. And virtue. If you live your life by your religions values then you will live a fulfilling life. I, however, think it is always healthy to question anything you are attempting to live your life by.

For example, I am not a christian. I do not believe that there was a person immaculately conceived and could produce miracles (along with much of the other passages). I, do, however, believe in the words of the bible. I think they lay wonderful moral fiber. As does the koran. As do the teachings of the asian and indian religions. Each one, broken down, is relaying the same moral fiber.

I, however, believe in logic above all else. And logic tells me that many claims in these texts are bogus.

 

[Mousebaby]

I wasn't meaning to offend you, I hope I didn't. I liked your post and replied with another of a similar attitude.

I believe people make leaps of faith in naivity. And virtue. If you live your life by your religions values then you will live a fulfilling life. I, however, think it is always healthy to question anything you are attempting to live your life by.

For example, I am not a christian. I do not believe that there was a person immaculately conceived and could produce miracles (along with much of the other passages). I, do, however, believe in the words of the bible. I think they lay wonderful moral fiber. As does the koran. As do the teachings of the asian and indian religions. Each one, broken down, is relaying the same moral fiber.

I, however, believe in logic above all else. And logic tells me that many claims in these texts are bogus.

I also believe that most claims of the religious to be bogus. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe that the end of times are near. I however do not have a set religion. Know most Christians would look down upon me for not believing in one certain religion. But I do not, and I know there are a lot of other people that believe the way I do. As long as I lead a righteous life and I believe and worship my God the way I believe he wants me to, I believe that I do not have to worry about what happens in the end of times. I believe I will be redeemed. I have tried to live a good honest life, and have always tried to help others, and will always believe in my God.

 

[dazed&fallen]

I wasn't meaning to offend you, I hope I didn't. I liked your post and replied with another of a similar attitude.

I believe people make leaps of faith in naivity. And virtue. If you live your life by your religions values then you will live a fulfilling life. I, however, think it is always healthy to question anything you are attempting to live your life by.

For example, I am not a christian. I do not believe that there was a person immaculately conceived and could produce miracles (along with much of the other passages). I, do, however, believe in the words of the bible. I think they lay wonderful moral fiber. As does the koran. As do the teachings of the asian and indian religions. Each one, broken down, is relaying the same moral fiber.

I, however, believe in logic above all else. And logic tells me that many claims in these texts are bogus.

No no that's a much better response then I would have gotten a few years ago. I appreciate it. I have spent much of my life angry about my religious upbringing. The things I said in the past were very defensive. Now that my own opinions are more firmly developed, I hope I can discuss them without the emotional element.

I am not against the Bible. I am against it's misuse.

 

[Mousebaby]

No no that's a much better response then I would have gotten a few years ago. I appreciate it. I have spent much of my life angry about my religious upbringing. The things I said in the past were very defensive. Now that my own opinions are more firmly developed, I hope I can discuss them without the emotional element.

I am not against the Bible. I am against it's misuse.

Best words I heard in a long time to describe the way some of us feel.

 

[Gwydion]

No no that's a much better response then I would have gotten a few years ago. I appreciate it. I have spent much of my life angry about my religious upbringing. The things I said in the past were very defensive. Now that my own opinions are more firmly developed, I hope I can discuss them without the emotional element.

I am not against the Bible. I am against it's misuse.

I got into many heated arguments with family, friends, and religious leaders about the bible. I grew up lutheran and, besides one muslim, everybody I knew was christian. It was all I knew. When I began questioning passages and when I started to question miracles, I was shot down and basically told to "Shut up and believe." (un)fortunately, believing takes faith. Faith unquestioningly.

My mom finally pulled me aside and told me "Listen. I don't care if you believe in god. I don't care if you are jewish, muslim, buddhist. All I care about is you live your life well." She smiled and walked away. Some christians will say she didn't do what she should have. Some will say she should have tried harder. The problem is, my -faith- was gone prior to her saying that. And once you lose faith, its almost impossible to get it back. Once you have made up in your own mind that the bible is not true, there is no going back. You can't simply say "I know the earth was not created to be unique. I know man was not created by God molding earth. But I will believe in it all." My mother knew I was at that point in my life. And, to be honest, she couldn't have said anything better than what she did. She basically told me to take what I had learned from the bible and my 15 years as a lutheran and apply their foundation to my life.

The only thing that annoys me about religion now is when people attempt to force it unwillingly on others.

 

[dazed&fallen]

I got into many heated arguments with family, friends, and religious leaders about the bible. I grew up lutheran and, besides one muslim, everybody I knew was christian. It was all I knew. When I began questioning passages and when I started to question miracles, I was shot down and basically told to "Shut up and believe." (un)fortunately, believing takes faith. Faith unquestioningly.

My mom finally pulled me aside and told me "Listen. I don't care if you believe in god. I don't care if you are jewish, muslim, buddhist. All I care about is you live your life well." She smiled and walked away. Some christians will say she didn't do what she should have. Some will say she should have tried harder. The problem is, my -faith- was gone prior to her saying that. And once you lose faith, its almost impossible to get it back. Once you have made up in your own mind that the bible is not true, there is no going back. You can't simply say "I know the earth was not created to be unique. I know man was not created by God molding earth. But I will believe in it all." My mother knew I was at that point in my life. And, to be honest, she couldn't have said anything better than what she did. She basically told me to take what I had learned from the bible and my 15 years as a lutheran and apply their foundation to my life.

The only thing that annoys me about religion now is when people attempt to force it unwillingly on others.

I can respect that. Sometimes the facts are too overwhelming but once you walk away you realize it's not so bad after all.

I've always been different. I'm an artist.

Some people think I'm the Devil. I don't take the scripture very literally.
I never liked church. I never really saw the point. I dispensed with the traditional concept of God at my earliest convenience. Religions are myths to me. Not "myths" meaning untrue per se, They attempt to assert truths about human nature. I've made a study of them.

Hinduism is my favorite. Many sects aren't as dogmatic as the Christianity I was raised in and I fell in love with the colorful imagery. I still wouldn't consider myself Hindu. I guess you could say I'm an enthusiast.

So people get on me telling me how I'm going to go to Hell but I don't much believe in Hell in any literal sense. I haven't seen any evidence. Dante's Inferno wasn't all that compelling.

All in all I'm not a bad person. I try to be generous and responsible. I try to obey the law reasonably well. I'm not sure why I need a religion to reinforce those things. Maybe it's just not for me.

 

[dazed&fallen]

Best words I heard in a long time to describe the way some of us feel.

Oh good! I try.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I understand. The point of the post is not to upset people. Why people get upset in religious discussions is beyond me.

People make presuppositions or leaps of faith without any sound reasoning behind them. Is it a virtue? or is it naivity?

I like to play devil's advocate, that's why I pitched this passage.

Faith. It is that simple. We all have faith in something. For some, it is faith in Darwin. For others it is faith that they will be alive the next instant.

For me, I have faith that God is my Father and He watches over me, loves me, and will welcome me home when the time comes. Christians are called to have the faith of a little child. That is absolute faith. You may call it unreasoning faith. So be it. I call it the faith a child has in his loving Father. It can't be explained to those that don't have it. A person that does not have it cannot be argued or convinced to have it. It is there or it is not. But even those that have it not at the present have until their dying breath to reach out for the hand of the Father ... in faith.

I don't think it is virtuous or naive. It is what it is for those that have it; faith in their loving Creator.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I have spent much of my life angry about my religious upbringing. The things I said in the past were very defensive. Now that my own opinions are more firmly developed, I hope I can discuss them without the emotional element.

I am not against the Bible. I am against it's misuse.

I agree with the last line but what basis do you have to know when it is "misused"?
I, too, wonder why people get upset in religious discussions but it's because no one likes to be told they're wrong and most people want it on their terms.
I won't get any deeper here because it's not where you all want this thread to go.

 

[dazed&fallen]

I agree with the last line but what basis do you have to know when it is "misused"?
I, too, wonder why people get upset in religious discussions but it's because no one likes to be told they're wrong and most people want it on their terms.
I won't get any deeper here because it's not where you all want this thread to go.

Oh is that so? I'd like to hear it.

 

[dazed&fallen]

Faith. It is that simple. We all have faith in something. For some, it is faith in Darwin. For others it is faith that they will be alive the next instant.

For me, I have faith that God is my Father and He watches over me, loves me, and will welcome me home when the time comes. Christians are called to have the faith of a little child. That is absolute faith. You may call it unreasoning faith. So be it. I call it the faith a child has in his loving Father. It can't be explained to those that don't have it. A person that does not have it cannot be argued or convinced to have it. It is there or it is not. But even those that have it not at the present have until their dying breath to reach out for the hand of the Father ... in faith.

I don't think it is virtuous or naive. It is what it is for those that have it; faith in their loving Creator.

Not everything in life is so neatly packaged. Faith presuppositions are intellectual suicide. You can quote me on that.

 

[Dye Tied]

Don't want to sound like an idiot, but does it have something to do with the end of times. Because I believe it is upon us.

It's a bit late for that.