What Catholics Believe About Baptism

[Radiant1]

Same source as before, broken into parts.
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I. Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - When Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

John 3:22 - After teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

John 4:1 - Here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Acts 8:36 – The eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb. 10:22 – The author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 44:3 - The Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.

Ezek. 36:25-27 - The Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

 

[Radiant1]

II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - There is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

John 3:3,5 - Unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - If belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - These texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 - Further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 - In baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Gal. 3:27 - Whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

Col. 2:12 - In baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

Heb. 10:22 - In baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

Luke 23:43 - The good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - There is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.

 

[Radiant1]

III. Infant Baptism
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - These texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - Man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - This proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - It was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - Sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - The grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - We are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - If anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - The faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - The servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - The Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

 

[Radiant1]

IV. Pouring and Sprinkling versus Immersion
Ezek. 36:25 - Ezekiel prophesies that God "will 'sprinkle' clean water on you and you shall be clean." The word for "sprinkle" is "rhaino" which means what it says, sprinkle (not immersion). (“Kai rhaino eph hymas hydor katharon.”)

2 Kings 5:14 - Namaan went down and dipped himself in the Jordan. The Greek word for "dipped" is "baptizo." Here, baptizo means immersion. But many Protestant churches argue that "baptizo" and related tenses of the Greek word always mean immersion, and therefore the Catholic baptisms of pouring or sprinkling water over the head are invalid. The Scriptures disprove their claim.

Num. 19:18 – Here, the verbs for dipping (“baptisantes”) and sprinkled (“bapsei”) refers to affusion (pouring) and sprinkling (aspersion), not immersion.

Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16 -John the Baptist prophesied that Jesus will baptize ("baptisei") with the Holy Spirit and fire. In this case, "baptisei" refers to a "pouring" out over the head. This is confirmed by Matt. 3:16 where the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus' head like a dove and Acts 2:3-4 where the Holy Spirit descended upon Mary and the apostles' heads in the form of tongues of fire. In each case, in fulfilling John the Baptist's prophecy, the Lord baptized ("baptizo") in the form of pouring out His Spirit upon the head, not immersing the person.

Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - Jesus also talks about His baptism (from "baptizo") of blood, which was shed and sprinkled in His passion. But this baptism does not (and cannot) mean immersion.

Mark 7:3 - The Pharisees do not eat unless they wash ("baptizo" ) their hands. This demonstrates that "baptizo" does not always mean immersion. It can mean pouring water over something (in this case, over their hands).

Mark 7:4 - We see that the Jews washed ("bapto" from baptizo) cups, pitchers and vessels, but this does not mean that they actually immersed these items. Also, some manuscripts say the Jews also washed (bapto) couches, yet they did not immerse the couches, they only sprinkled them.

Luke 11:38 - Jesus had not washed ("ebaptisthe") His hands before dinner. Here, the derivative of "baptizo" just means washing up, not immersing.

Acts 2:41 - At Peter's first sermon, 3,000 were baptized. There is archeological proof that immersion would have been impossible in this area. Instead, these 3,000 people had to be sprinkled in water baptism.

Acts 8:38 - Because the verse says they "went down into the water," many Protestants say this is proof that baptism must be done by immersion. But the verb to describe Phillip and the eunuch going down into the water is the same verb ("katabaino") used in Acts 8:26 to describe the angel's instruction to Phillip to stop his chariot and go down to Gaza. The word has nothing to do with immersing oneself in water.

Acts 8:39 - Because the verse says "they came up out of the water," many Protestants also use this verse to prove that baptism must be done by immersion. However, the Greek word for "coming up out of the water" is "anebesan" which is plural. The verse is describing that both Phillip and the eunuch ascended out of the water, but does not prove that they were both immersed in the water. In fact, Phillip could not have baptized the eunuch if Phillip was also immersed. Finally, even if this was a baptism by immersion, the verse does not say that baptism by immersion is the only way to baptize.

Acts 9:18; 22:16 - Paul is baptized while standing up in the house of Judas. There is no hot tub or swimming pool for immersion. This demonstrates that Paul was sprinkled.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized in the house of Cornelius, even though hot tubs and swimming pools were not part of homes. Those in the house had to be sprinkled.

Acts 16:33 - The baptism of the jailer and his household appears to be in the house, so immersion is not possible.

Acts 2:17,18,33 - The pouring of water is like the "pouring" out of the Holy Spirit. Pouring is also called "infusion" (of grace).

1 Cor. 10:2 - Paul says that the Israelites were baptized ("baptizo") in the cloud and in the sea. But they could not have been immersed because Exodus 14:22 and 15:9 say that they went dry shod. Thus, "baptizo" does not mean immersed in these verses.

Eph. 4:5 - There is only one baptism, just as there is only one Lord and one faith. Once a person is validly baptized by water and the Spirit in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with the intention of the Church (whether by pouring or immersion), there is no longer a need to rebaptize the person.

Titus 3:6 – The “washing of regeneration” (baptism) is “poured out” upon us. This “pouring out” generally refers to the pouring of baptismal waters over the head of the newly baptized.

Heb. 6:2 – On the doctrine of baptisms (the word used is “baptismos”) which generally referred to pouring and not immersion.

Heb. 10:22 – The author writes, “with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.” This “sprinkling” of baptism refers to aspersion, not immersion. The text also parallels 1 Peter 3:21, which expressly mentions baptism and its ability to, like Heb. 10:22, purify the conscience (the interior disposition of a person).

Isaiah 44:3 - The Lord "pours" water on the thirsty land and "pours" His Spirit upon our descendants. The Lord is “pouring,” not “immersing.”

2 Thess. 2:15 - Hold fast to the tradition of the Church, whether oral or written. Since the time of Christ, baptisms have been done by pouring or sprinkling.

 

[Radiant1]

V. Original Sin
Gen. 2:17 - The day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - Man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - Sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - Death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - The judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - By one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - For by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - We were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.
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[ItalianScallion]

In John 3:3-5 Jesus was NOT talking about Baptism here; sorry. He even goes on to explain what He meant but, since it conflicts with the RCC's money making scheme of infant baptism, they changed it's meaning.

The context here is not about baptism, it's about being born again. Born of water refers to human birth (Flesh gives birth to flesh) and born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth (the Spirit gives birth to spirit) which He clarifies as being born again in v 7.

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Radiant1]

All that scripture and that's all you've got. That's your alternative interpretation and you're entitled to it.

 

[tiger78]

All that scripture and that's all you've got. That's your alternative interpretation and you're entitled to it.

You state above that the word for baptize in Matthew 3 (when Jesus comes to John to be baptized) means to be poured or sprinkled. However, according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance the original Greek word is baptizo which means to make overwhelmed or to make fully wet. That IMO would require immersion.
Also, in Scripture it refers to baptism as being a symbolic burial. You must cover something completely to consider it to be buried.....

 

[tiger78]

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Rom. 5:12 - Sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.


I don't know where to begin....
Do you seriously believe that infants and small children are damned to Hell if their parents do not have them "baptized"? NOTHING in the scriptures supports this thinking. Jesus's statement that you also quote...Unless you become as one of these, you will not enter the kingdom.... (my paraphrase) He is speaking about children's innocence. Otherwise, what would be the difference between children and adults?


The quote of He who believes and is baptized will be saved and he who does not believe will be condemned does not disqualify the need for belief to be the first step. If you do not believe then of course why would you take the step to be baptized...simple logic. And just because someone once believed and was baptized does not mean that they cannot fall away in the future. Belief is paramount.

Original sin does not mean that we are born with past sins on our record. We are not judged by our forefathers. We are only accountable for our own actions. Original sin is the fact that because of the sin in the garden we all became as Adam and Eve and "inherited" the knowledge of good and evil, and therefore we get to choose which path we will follow and because of that all of us have the punishment of eventual physical death. There is nothing that keep us from that. We are human and we all die.

 

[ItalianScallion]

All that scripture and that's all you've got. That's your alternative interpretation and you're entitled to it.

All that Scripture and you got it all wrong? You could have got some of it right. Maybe if I read it all I'd find something to agree with.

Wasn't it you who said we shouldn't listen to men? Who is your friend that he is such an authority and that you believe him over God?

 

[Radiant1]

I don't know where to begin....
Do you seriously believe that infants and small children are damned to Hell if their parents do not have them "baptized"? NOTHING in the scriptures supports this thinking. Jesus's statement that you also quote...Unless you become as one of these, you will not enter the kingdom.... (my paraphrase) He is speaking about children's innocence. Otherwise, what would be the difference between children and adults?

We don't know what happens if one (infant, child or adult) dies without being baptized, we rely on the mercy and justice of God. We tend to think they won't go to hell if they had lived by the dictates of their conscience, but we also think that's a heck of a lot easier if one has been baptized. There is high indication that infants were baptized and with good reason; hence, why we do also.

The quote of He who believes and is baptized will be saved and he who does not believe will be condemned does not disqualify the need for belief to be the first step. If you do not believe then of course why would you take the step to be baptized...simple logic. And just because someone once believed and was baptized does not mean that they cannot fall away in the future. Belief is paramount.

If baptism has no efficaciousness for us, then why bother?

Original sin does not mean that we are born with past sins on our record. We are not judged by our forefathers. We are only accountable for our own actions. Original sin is the fact that because of the sin in the garden we all became as Adam and Eve and "inherited" the knowledge of good and evil, and therefore we get to choose which path we will follow and because of that all of us have the punishment of eventual physical death. There is nothing that keep us from that. We are human and we all die. .

Baptism is the beginning of justification. Justification is necessary due to original sin. Btw, the sacrament of confirmation is when Catholics formally proclaim belief and renew baptismal vows.

 

[Radiant1]

All that Scripture and you got it all wrong? You could have got some of it right. Maybe if I read it all I'd find something to agree with.

Wasn't it you who said we shouldn't listen to men? Who is your friend that he is such an authority and that you believe him over God?

How can you say I got it all wrong if you didn't bother to read it?

The Church teaches what it does because of God's Word, my friend merely put it together concisely. Are you calling yourself God again? Because this is a difference between the interpretations of the Apostolic Church as opposed to yours.

 

[ItalianScallion]

We don't know what happens if one (infant, child or adult) dies without being baptized, we rely on the mercy and justice of God. We tend to think they won't go to hell if they had lived by the dictates of their conscience, but we also think that's a heck of a lot easier if one has been baptized. There is high indication that infants were baptized and with good reason; hence, why we do also.

I'd love to see any of that in Scripture... Where do you come up with this: "won't go to hell if they had lived..."??
And where is "there high indication that infants were baptized"?? Not in the Bible I'm sure...

And we DO know what happens to people who die w/o being baptized. It's also clear that infants go to Heaven because they have not reached their age of accountability yet. David made this clear with the child of him & Bathsheba:

22 "He answered, While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live. But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12)

Baptism is the beginning of justification. Justification is necessary due to original sin.

No one is born with ANY "original sin" and baptism wouldn't forgive it if they were...

How can you say I got it all wrong if you didn't bother to read it? Are you calling yourself God again? Because this is a difference between the interpretations of the Apostolic Church as opposed to yours.

I've read enough to know your history...
You're the only one here calling me "God"....and your church is not "Apostolic"... :shrug:

 

[hvp05]

No one is born with ANY "original sin"...

Then what did Jesus "save" us from?

 

[ItalianScallion]

Then what did Jesus "save" us from?

There's a myth out there that people are born with "original sin" on their soul at birth and that they need to be baptized to remove it. The truth is that we are all born with a sin "nature", not sin. A sin nature means that, if/when we reach our age of accountability (which varies in everyone), we will sin, guaranteed.

The Bible says, once we're old enough, we EACH are accountable for our OWN sins, so how can we get the sins of another placed on us? We can't:

16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin..." (Deut 24)

20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." (Ezekiel 18)

If you'd like to read the full story, read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 18. I just gave you the "jist" of it here but it's only 30 verses and explains the story of accountability very clearly.

Now, all that being said; since you now know that we're EACH accountable for our own sins......those are what Jesus died to save us from: Our OWN sins and our OWN choice to believe in and follow Him. That's why we call Jesus our "Personal Savior" because we EACH have to make the decision to follow Him.

I'm soo happy that you are asking these really good questions hvp

 

[Radiant1]

I'd love to see any of that in Scripture... Where do you come up with this: "won't go to hell if they had lived..."??
And where is "there high indication that infants were baptized"?? Not in the Bible I'm sure...

As I said, we rely on the mercy and justice of God. Do we really need to go into the whole jungle-boy analogy again? It's been done to death on this forum already.

Re-read post 3 in this thread. Oh, that's right, you didn't bother.

http://forums.somd.com/4590436-post3.html

No one is born with ANY "original sin" and baptism wouldn't forgive it if they were...

That all depends on how one understands "original sin". Apparently, you don't understand it the way the majority of Christians (Catholic and Protestant) do.

By all means, as I'm sure you will, continue forth and tell us all how you are right and the rest of us are wrong.

 

[Radiant1]

I don't know where to begin....

Then don't. Refer to post 7 in this thread.

 

[Radiant1]

Who is your friend that he is such an authority and that you believe him over God?

He has no authority, he merely pieced scripture as interpreted by the Catholic Church together specifically for people like you.

 

[ItalianScallion]

That all depends on how one understands "original sin". Apparently, you don't understand it the way the majority of Christians (Catholic and Protestant) do.
By all means, as I'm sure you will, continue forth and tell us all how you are right and the rest of us are wrong.

In the words of Ronald Reagan: "Well, there you go again". Or is your name Bill Clinton? All this: "it depends on how one understands it" stuff? There is NO original sin anywhere in the Bible. There are NO inferrences of it either. We are responsible and accountable for OUR OWN SINS.

He has no authority, he merely pieced scripture as interpreted by the Catholic Church together specifically for people like you.

Well, at least we agree on that...

 

[Starman3000m]

III. Infant Baptism
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - These texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults...

Not quite. Baptism is not the "new circumcision for all people of the New Covenant". That is as misleading of a statement as when someone once claimed that "Mary" was the new ark of the Covenant.

According to the Holy Bible, this is what would be considered the New Circumcision:

...circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:29)

There needs to be a genuine repentance and a change of heart in an individual and that can really only be done when one is at the age of accountability - when you know your life needs to be given over to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and brought under God's control.

In regard to baptism: Water baptism, by complete immersion, is an outward public display that an individual has willingly made the decision to give his/her life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It is symbolic.

The True Baptism:
It is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through which an individual is able to become "Born Again" as Jesus said one must be: (John 3:3-8) This takes place when an individual knowingly turns from the world and gives his/her heart and life completely over to faith in Christ. At that time, the Holy Spirit of God comes to indwell within the life of the believer as the Comforter and seals one's Salvation: (John 16:7) (Ephesians 4:30) (1Jn:2:27)

Children under the age of accountability who for whatever reason die in their innocence would not be turned away from Heaven: (Mark 10:13-16)

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)