What do you value?

[This_person]

If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that, too.
— Somerset Maugham

 

[Larry Gude]

We value safety first, last and always and at the cost of anything and everything else.

 

[This_person]

We value safety first, last and always and at the cost of anything and everything else.

Some do. If I had the money to fight the TSA on 4th Amendment, I would. I wish those with the money would.

 

[Larry Gude]

Some do. If I had the money to fight the TSA on 4th Amendment, I would. I wish those with the money would.

The TSA is the only one that at least SOME case can be made for. At least you can choose to not fly however inconvenient that may be. You can't opt out of the other two, at all.

 

[This_person]

The TSA is the only one that at least SOME case can be made for. At least you can choose to not fly however inconvenient that may be. You can't opt out of the other two, at all.

For me, the TSA is the least arguable. It is in direct violation of the fourth amendment. The only case that can be made for the TSA is that it's better to violate the constitution than have a plane hijacked. There is no other argument, and that is a bad argument from the points of view of liberty and freedom. The other two are more esoteric to most - won't fit on a soundbite.

 

[Larry Gude]

For me, the TSA is the least arguable. It is in direct violation of the fourth amendment. The only case that can be made for the TSA is that it's better to violate the constitution than have a plane hijacked. There is no other argument, and that is a bad argument from the points of view of liberty and freedom. The other two are more esoteric to most - won't fit on a soundbite.

But, again, you CAN choose to not fly. You can't choose to not be spied on by your gummint and you can't choose to not be subject to all the provisions and powers the gummint assumes under the DHS and Pat Act.

 

[vraiblonde]

If the government wants to spy on me as I travel across the country, that doesn't make me less free.

What is this hippie crap thinking the Constitution makes you "free" from any government intrusion or monitoring or regulation? It doesn't say that at all. Like, anywhere. You're thinking about anarchy, not a republic.

 

[Clem72]

But, again, you CAN choose to not fly. You can't choose to not be spied on by your gummint and you can't choose to not be subject to all the provisions and powers the gummint assumes under the DHS and Pat Act.

I think the point is that private security might be okay in this instance, as people could choose which airlines/airports to frequent and vote with their wallets if they think the security measures are overly invasive. With TSA it's the government who is performing this action so you get no choice.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think the point is that private security might be okay in this instance, as people could choose which airlines/airports to frequent and vote with their wallets if they think the security measures are overly invasive. With TSA it's the government who is performing this action so you get no choice.

Yes, but, you can STILL opt out and, maybe many don't know it but there are already massive work arounds where, if you have more money, you can avoid more and more of it.

 

[Larry Gude]

If the government wants to spy on me as I travel across the country, that doesn't make me less free.

What is this hippie crap thinking the Constitution makes you "free" from any government intrusion or monitoring or regulation? It doesn't say that at all. Like, anywhere. You're thinking about anarchy, not a republic.

4th amendment. aka 'hippie crap'

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

 

[vraiblonde]

4th amendment. aka 'hippie crap'

See that word - "unreasonable"?

 

[Larry Gude]

See that word - "unreasonable"?

This is old news; you're happy to toss aside the 4th amendment because you've either nothing to hide or nothing you're concerned about. By and large, I agree with that. I think NSA LOVES my e mails and texts and online postings try as I might to hide it all behind a clever screen name. That said, it's a RIGHT because some people don't want to share so readily. It's a right because YOU shouldn't be able to throw it away for EVERYONE. Keep in mind; it's there to limit the gummint, not we, the people.

 

[vraiblonde]

This is old news; you're happy to toss aside the 4th amendment because you've either nothing to hide or nothing you're concerned about. By and large, I agree with that. I think NSA LOVES my e mails and texts and online postings try as I might to hide it all behind a clever screen name. That said, it's a RIGHT because some people don't want to share so readily. It's a right because YOU shouldn't be able to throw it away for EVERYONE. Keep in mind; it's there to limit the gummint, not we, the people.

Who do you think is keeping tabs on you? TSA? Because they, what? Make you show ID to get on a plane? Why do you feel so persecuted and spied upon? Do you have any evidence that you are under surveillance? What do you want to do but can't because you are being carefully watched?

 

[This_person]

Who do you think is keeping tabs on you? TSA? Because they, what? Make you show ID to get on a plane? Why do you feel so persecuted and spied upon? Do you have any evidence that you are under surveillance? What do you want to do but can't because you are being carefully watched?

The problem isn't so much being watched. I have no issue with being filmed, recorded, etc., in a public place like an airport.

The problem comes when I am frisked, searched, my baggage x-rayed, my water seized, my shampoo seized, my perfectly-legal pocket knife seized. They're not allowed to do that without a signed warrant issued stating specifically what they're looking for and why - as in, what evidence they have that I have something illegal or an illegal intent. Freedom means I get to get onto the plane after having a contract with the airlines to take me somewhere without government interference unless the government meets these rules.

It is unreasonable to search me and seize my property without a reason to think I'm going to do something wrong.

 

[Larry Gude]

Who do you think is keeping tabs on you? TSA? Because they, what? Make you show ID to get on a plane? Why do you feel so persecuted and spied upon? Do you have any evidence that you are under surveillance? What do you want to do but can't because you are being carefully watched?

I don't like having to take my shoes off. I don't like being scanned. I don't like some stranger patting me down. I don't like having to take my wallet out, my belt off, setting my phone and keys out of my immediate control. I don't like having my CPAP gone through every single time. I don't like my bags rummaged through. And I don't like the wait and the lines. I don't like having to toss my water bottle or lose yet another pocket knife either that is in my carry on or absent mindedly in my pocket. I don't like having to concern myself with the size of my shampoo. I don't like the clear implication of guilt such a search and seizure most clearly is.

As I say, this isn't news to either of us. You have a totalitarian bent and affection for same.


I don't.