Where was Jesus Born?

Bustem' Down · Dec 20, 2005

This was a very interesting article I read recently in Archeology magazine. Here are a few paragraphs of it and I will add the link on the website if your interested in ordering a back issue with the full story.

Archeology Nov/Dec 2005 issue said:
Where was Jesus Born? Volume 58 Number 6, November/December 2005
By Aviram Oshri

Theologians question biblical accounts of the Nativity. Now archaeologists are doing the same.

The town of Bethlehem in the West Bank, some six miles south of Jerusalem, is revered by millions as the birthplace of Jesus. According to the New Testament account of the apostle Matthew, Joseph and Mary were living in Bethlehem in the southern region of Judea at the time of Jesus' birth and later moved to Nazareth in the northern Galilee region. In the more popular account of the apostle Luke, Joseph and a very pregnant Mary traveled more than 90 miles from their residence in Nazareth to Joseph's Judean hometown of Bethlehem to be counted in a Roman census. Regardless of the variation, both apostles agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, the city where King David had been born a thousand years earlier. The Christian Messiah could thereby be considered a descendant of the House of David--a requirement for followers of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

But while Luke and Matthew describe Bethlehem in Judea as the birthplace of Jesus, "Menorah," the vast database of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), describes Bethlehem as an "ancient site" with Iron Age material and the fourth-century Church of the Nativity and associated Byzantine and medieval buildings. But there is a complete absence of information for antiquities from the Herodian period--that is, from the time around the birth of Jesus.

I had never before questioned the assumption that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea. But in the early 1990s, as an archaeologist working for the IAA, I was contracted to perform some salvage excavations around building and infrastructure projects in a small rural community in the Galilee. When I started work, some of the people who lived around the site told me how Jesus was really born there, not in the south. Intrigued, I researched the archaeological evidence for Bethlehem in Judea at the time of Jesus and found nothing. This was very surprising, as Herodian remains should be the first thing one should find. What was even more surprising is what archaeologists had already uncovered and what I was to discover over the next 11 years of excavation at the small rural site--Bethlehem of Galilee.

Aviram Oshri is a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority

http://www.archaeology.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=backissues

camily · Dec 20, 2005

There is alot of controversy on this. I don't know the answer to it and won't pretend to. I know there is also controversy about how old Jesus was when the wise men came. I have heard he was two years old, not the night he was born.

rack'm · Dec 20, 2005

Linkage......

Bustem' Down · Dec 20, 2005

camily said:
There is alot of controversy on this. I don't know the answer to it and won't pretend to. I know there is also controversy about how old Jesus was when the wise men came. I have heard he was two years old, not the night he was born.

2A would be the expert, but just looking at the age of children the Herod ordered killed would show that Jesus was not a child. The article is not trying to be controversial, it's merely an archeological writing on what was found there and the possibility that this would be the place. Obviously the early christian church thought it was or else they would not have built a church there.

PJay · Dec 20, 2005

Bustem' Down? <<< Interesting name, that aside....

do you believe Jesus was born?

2ndAmendment · Dec 20, 2005

I didn't read the article. I have noticed that much of the material produced for television by the Israel Antiquities Authority is slanted away from a Christian perspective as I would expect it to be. As an example, they use BCE (Before Common Era) instead of BC (Before Christ) for time references. If they were to admit Y'shua is the Messiah, then they would have to admit they crucified the Messiah. Not a good thing for a Jew to contemplate.

The Bible says that Joseph and Mary traveled from Galilee to Judea.

Luke 2:1-5

1Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. 2This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.

3And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city.

4Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,

5in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger according to Luke.

Luke 2

15When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, "Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us."

16So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.

17When they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child.

18And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds.

19But Mary treasured all these things, pondering them in her heart.

20The shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.

Jesus Presented at the Temple

21And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. 22And when the days for their purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord

Matthew tells us that the wise men arrived a bit later.

Matthew 2:1-12

1Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, 2"Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

3When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

4Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born.

5They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
6'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH,
ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH;
FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER
WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"

7Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

8And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."

9After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.

10When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.

11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, the magi left for their own country by another way.

Notice that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were living in a house and not still at the manger.

Matthew 2:12-23

13Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him." 14So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.

15He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON."

Herod Slaughters Babies

16Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi. 17Then what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled:
18"A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."

19But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said,

20"Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child's life are dead."

21So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.

22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee,

23and came and lived in a city called Nazareth This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: "He shall be called a Nazarene."

According to this, Y'shua, Jesus, was probably a little less than two according to verse 16 above.
Luke's account does not include the flight to Egypt but it does confirm that Jesus, Joseph, and Mary returned to Nazareth.

Luke 2:39-40

39When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.

40The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

camily · Dec 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
I didn't read the article. I have noticed that much of the material produced for television by the Israel Antiquities Authority is slanted away from a Christian perspective as I would expect it to be. As an example, they use BCE (Before Common Era) instead of BC (Before Christ) for time references. If they were to admit Y'shua is the Messiah, then they would have to admit they crucified the Messiah. Not a good thing for a Jew to contemplate.

The Bible says that Joseph and Mary traveled from Galilee to Judea.

The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger according to Luke.

Matthew tells us that the wise men arrived a bit later. Notice that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were living in a house and not still at the manger.

According to this, Y'shua, Jesus, was probably a little less than two according to verse 16 above.
Luke's account does not include the flight to Egypt but it does confirm that Jesus, Joseph, and Mary returned to Nazareth.

Nice post 2nd. Very clear to me.

Bustem' Down · Dec 20, 2005

Homesick said:
Bustem' Down? <<< Interesting name, that aside....

do you believe Jesus was born?

Yes, I believe that a man of the royal bloodline of David was born. However, I do not believe him to be the son of God. I found this article interesting from a historical standpoint. I've been to Bethleham in Judea and seen the Church of the Nativity, Now I'd like to see the site at Bethleham of Galilee.

Larry Gude · Dec 21, 2005

I thought Pontious Pilate...

then they would have to admit they crucified the Messiah

...killed Jesus?

Bustem' Down · Dec 21, 2005

Larry Gude said:
...killed Jesus?

Yes and no. It was Pilate and the Roman Empire who actually killed Jesus, but, it was at the request of the Sanhedrin (is that right) the religious governing body of the Jews to get it done. They couldn't legal kill him for the crimes, but the Romans could and when Pilate asked the gathered jews who to be released, Jesus or Barabas, they choose the latter.

kwillia · Dec 21, 2005

Bustem' Down said:
Yes and no. It was Pilate and the Roman Empire who actually killed Jesus, but, it was at the request of the Sanhedrin (is that right) the religious governing body of the Jews to get it done. They couldn't legal kill him for the crimes, but the Romans could and when Pilate asked the gathered jews who to be released, Jesus or Barabas, they choose the latter.

Wasn't that the biggest beef the Jews had with Mel Gibson's movie... that he told the story as was and didn't soften that tidbit...

SamSpade · Dec 21, 2005

kwillia said:
Wasn't that the biggest beef the Jews had with Mel Gibson's movie... that he told the story as was and didn't soften that tidbit...

They don't care much for the Gospel account.

What I thought was unremarkable about Gibson's movie was that, as far as dialogue and story go - it's EXACTLY like every other account of the passion of Christ. Word for word. Scene for scene. When I grew up in church, we heard all of this every single Good Friday. Unless you never go to church - or maybe, you're Jewish - there wasn't one thing in the movie I haven't seen a gazillion times.

Larry Gude · Dec 21, 2005

So no...

Yes and no

The answer is yes, the Romans killed Jesus.

As an Episcopal, we pray that Pontious did the deed with no mention of Jews.

Bustem' Down · Dec 21, 2005

Larry Gude said:
The answer is yes, the Romans killed Jesus.

As an Episcopal, we pray that Pontious did the deed with no mention of Jews.

Ok then, yes, the Romans did the deed. The Jews condemed him.

kingpl2 · Dec 21, 2005

Bustem' Down said:
Ok then, yes, the Romans did the deed. The Jews condemed him.

Newsflash to all::: Your sins (and mine) are what crucified Jesus. Yes the Romans, Jews, and PP were accomplices but Jesus laid down his life sacrificially out of love and obedience to Our Father.

OBTW another reference to Bethlehem is it's meaning " house of Bread" ...and where did Jesus lay "in a manger" and what is a manger but an eating trough ( not the whole stable) So here is another prefigurement of the Eucharist the Blessed Sacrament God came to earth as man because we are to eat his flesh.. yet when he told his followers this many left - and he did not try to stop them

Bustem' Down · Dec 21, 2005

kingpl2 said:
Newsflash to all::: Your sins (and mine) are what crucified Jesus. Yes the Romans, Jews, and PP were accomplices but Jesus laid down his life sacrificially out of love and obedience to Our Father.

OBTW another reference to Bethlehem is it's meaning " house of Bread" ...and where did Jesus lay "in a manger" and what is a manger but an eating trough ( not the whole stable) So here is another prefigurement of the Eucharist the Blessed Sacrament God came to earth as man because we are to eat his flesh.. yet when he told his followers this many left - and he did not try to stop them

Yes yes we know that, but that really wasn't what the conversation was about. It was about who's hands were bloody in the literal sense.

PJay · Dec 21, 2005

kingpl2 said:
Newsflash to all::: Your sins (and mine) are what crucified Jesus. Yes the Romans, Jews, and PP were accomplices but Jesus laid down his life sacrificially out of love and obedience to Our Father.

Yeah. He could've ran.

watercolor · Dec 21, 2005

Homesick said:
Yeah. He could've ran.

Yeap! And the only time God runs, is when he runs TO people- and takes them in His arms! :huggy:

2ndAmendment · Dec 21, 2005

SamSpade said:
They don't care much for the Gospel account.

What I thought was unremarkable about Gibson's movie was that, as far as dialogue and story go - it's EXACTLY like every other account of the passion of Christ. Word for word. Scene for scene. When I grew up in church, we heard all of this every single Good Friday. Unless you never go to church - or maybe, you're Jewish - there wasn't one thing in the movie I haven't seen a gazillion times.

But the bloodiness of gore of the beating and crucifixion was probably very close to the reality of the event. One historian, Josephus[size=-1][/size], said that Jesus was turned into human rubble. The movie shows what He went through because of me and others.

2ndAmendment · Dec 21, 2005

Homesick said:
Yeah. He could've ran.

Or he could have called a legion of angels to come to His rescue, but He was born to give up His life for our salvation, and He carried through.

Where was Jesus Born?

Give Peas a Chance

Peace

Jaded

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Well-Known Member

Just a forgiven sinner

Peace

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Strung Out

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n/a

Well-Known Member

Strung Out

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New Member

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yeah yeah

Just a forgiven sinner

Just a forgiven sinner