Whoa! Read this at your own risk....

[Penn]

Mutilation Justification: Muslim Style

"A recent fatwa posted on a popular Islamic website in Saudi Arabia," reports Neil McFarquhar in The New York Times, "explains when a Muslim may mutilate the corpse of an infidel."

If this article doesn't make it any clearer for the western world, nothing else will.

We need to wake up, and open our eyes.

 

[Ken King]

016.126
YUSUFALI: And if ye do catch them out, catch them out no worse than they catch you out: But if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient.
PICKTHAL: If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient.
SHAKIR: And if you take your turn, then retaliate with the like of that with which you were afflicted; but if you are patient, it will certainly be best for those who are patient.

016.127
YUSUFALI: And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots.
PICKTHAL: Endure thou patiently (O Muhammad). Thine endurance is only by (the help of) Allah. Grieve not for them, and be not in distress because of that which they devise.
SHAKIR: And be patient and your patience is not but by (the assistance of) Allah, and grieve not for them, and do not distress yourself at what they plan.

016.128
YUSUFALI: For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah is with those who keep their duty unto Him and those who are doers of good.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah is with those who guard (against evil) and those who do good (to others).

This seems again to be the fanatic’s definition of the text. The differing interpretations do not seem to justify public displays of desecration and seem to forget about the passages that follow.

 

[happyappygirl]

Ken King writes:
This seems again to be the fanatic’s definition of the text....The differing interpretations ...............seem to forget about the passages that follow.

*******************

And here you explain the ways of a fanatacist/terrorist beautifully....

 

[SuperGrover]

Thanks Ken for shedding some light into half-truths and propaganda.

 

[Penn]

"The ruling by Sheik Omar Abdullah Hassan al-Shehabi specifies two circumstances in which the desecration of an infidel -- i.e., a non-Muslim -- is permitted. One is retaliation -- "when the enemy is disfiguring Muslim corpses or when it otherwise serves the Islamic nation." The other is when mutilation will "terrorize the enemy" or "gladden the heart of a Muslim warrior."

With conditions like those, it is hard to imagine any situation in which an Islamist militant couldn't justify the mutilation of a victim's body."

I can appreciate Ken's interpretations, however the two paragraphs above are nonetheless disturbing rhetoric.

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by penncam
I can appreciate Ken's interpretations, however the two paragraphs above are nonetheless disturbing rhetoric.

Appreciate then that the interpretations are those of the individuals referenced, they aren't mine. It seems the Quran has as many interpretations as the Bible does.

The rhetoric is disturbing but nothing new from many of these fanatics. They take small portions of the text and use them to justify their wrongdoing. However when looking at a greater portion of the text the meaning becomes clearly different then how some are using it. As I read that chapter it doesn't justify what the Sheik says it does.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Ken King
As I read that chapter it doesn't justify what the Sheik says it does.

But the fact remains, it is being interpreted as such by a person in a position of authority, n'est pas?

Which is more important - what a text actually says or how it's interpreted and fed to the masses?

 

[Ken King]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Which is more important - what a text actually says or how it's interpreted and fed to the masses?

What the text actually says, of course. It seems his rhetoric and justification was not to do as Allah has taught but what he wants to see taking place.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
But the fact remains, it is being interpreted as such by a person in a position of authority, n'est pas?

Which is more important - what a text actually says or how it's interpreted and fed to the masses?

Exactly. Religious fanatics can use anything to justify their fanaticism, even the works of Lewis Carroll or L. Frank Baum. They're especially dangerous when they have the charisma and talent to sway people to their horrid causes. This goes on in Christianity as well as Islam. Hasn't the World Church of the Creator been classified as a terrorist organization? And how about Bob Jones University, which defends white supremacy and segregation as God's plan for humanity?

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Ken King
What the text actually says, of course.

I disagree. More people will listen to the messenger than read the actual text. A good example are the number of people who say the First Amendment talks about separation of Church and State.

 

[Larry Gude]

Vrai is right...

...

Which is more important - what a text actually says or how it's interpreted and fed to the masses?

If what it says mattered most we'd have no churches or Mosques or Synogogues at all. Organized religion is, when you are growing up, ALL about what you are told it means.

Any person who grew up in a vacuum, with no exposure to religion and peoples self professed 'correct' interpretations of Gods Word and the import of same would, upon finishing reading the Koran or Bible or the Torah say...'Nice story'.

It is only when someone you respect, a person you will not let down or dissapoint, supported by your family and all your peers, hands you a weapon and says 'God said to go kill the bad people' that we have a problem.

 

[Ken King]

Re: Vrai is right...

Originally posted by Larry Gude
...



If what it says mattered most we'd have no churches or Mosques or Synogogues at all. Organized religion is, when you are growing up, ALL about what you are told it means.

Any person who grew up in a vacuum, with no exposure to religion and peoples self professed 'correct' interpretations of Gods Word and the import of same would, upon finishing reading the Koran or Bible or the Torah say...'Nice story'.

It is only when someone you respect, a person you will not let down or dissapoint, supported by your family and all your peers, hands you a weapon and says 'God said to go kill the bad people' that we have a problem.

I agree - get rid of the churches, mosques, and synagogues and a lot of problems vanish (not all mind you). Teach people to read and allow them to choose what the words mean. Some will say, as you said, "good story", others will see it as a guide for living one's life, which I believe these books are.

Many of these "respected people" have things other then the grace of God as their motivation and look upon the masses as sheep that might assist them in achieving their goal. No religion is beyond this, as history proves fairly well.

Point being, just because some fanatics make these claims and justify the hideous acts of some of those that follow the religion, it does not mean that all that are follwers act and believe the same way or about the same things.

Call me an idiot, but I believe in the good of people as a whole and, while I realize that there are many sick and deranged individuals trudging along the earth, I just don't think the religion one chooses to follow is a good indicator as to the likelihood of how they will act.

 

[Penn]

Re: Re: Vrai is right...

Originally posted by Ken King
Call me an idiot, but I believe in the good of people as a whole and, while I realize that there are many sick and deranged individuals trudging along the earth, I just don't think the religion one chooses to follow is a good indicator as to the likelihood of how they will act.

The problem here Ken, is those hundreds of people in the streets of Fallujah, or wherever they dismembered and burned those American soldiers; is that indicative of middle east thinking as a whole, or merely a local mob gone wild?

Also remember in the quotes above, the guy says they can mutilate American soldiers/civilians in return for like behavior done to them.

Excuse me, did I miss something?

Have we, along with coalition forces, been hacking, burning, and dragging captured terrorists down the street behind our humvees?

Ok, we put women's panties over their heads, and attached a leash to them.

Does that qualify?

 

[czygvtwkr]

Ever listen to interviews of muslims on TV? Nine times out of ten the reason they give for war being bad is "Muslims will die" Not people will die.

 

[Ken King]

Re: Re: Re: Vrai is right...

Originally posted by penncam
The problem here Ken, is those hundreds of people in the streets of Fallujah, or wherever they dismembered and burned those American soldiers; is that indicative of middle east thinking as a whole, or merely a local mob gone wild?

And there are millions of Iraqis not doing this – what’s your point? I don’t see this happening by all, only a select few. You know - the insurgents that want us dead, the Hussein loyalists that want us dead, and the criminal element that Hussein freed at the beginning of our actions that want everyone dead. I would say that the majority of the people living there would just like to live in peace without all the violence that has consumed the majority of their lives.

Also remember in the quotes above, the guy says they can mutilate American soldiers/civilians in return for like behavior done to them.

Excuse me, did I miss something?

Have we, along with coalition forces, been hacking, burning, and dragging captured terrorists down the street behind our humvees?

I won’t justify what they have done as I think it is atrocious, but maybe when they see the numerous bodies torn apart by the .50 calibers, the rockets, the shells, the bombs, and all of our other weaponry they view it as being similar to what they are doing. We don’t drag them around but we certainly get some travel distance out of them at times.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Another wonderful quote about a car bombing today in Iraq.

"Maybe the Americans have done this to us to allow them to stay on longer," Qais Alwan said from his hospital bed. "OK, let them stay, but why are they doing this to us? All the victims are Iraqis, so by God, they must be Americans because Iraqis don't kill fellow Iraqi brothers."

 

[Penn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Vrai is right...

Originally posted by Ken King
I won’t justify what they have done as I think it is atrocious, but maybe when they see the numerous bodies torn apart by the .50 calibers, the rockets, the shells, the bombs, and all of our other weaponry they view it as being similar to what they are doing. We don’t drag them around but we certainly get some travel distance out of them at times.

Sorry Ken, that is a pretty good stretch of the imagination. In other words, you think the bad guys are going around and viewing their dead comrades, critically observing what wounds caused their deaths, and making the leap that these results are their justification for the willful dismemberment of the enemy's body?
If that were so, then throughout modern warfare, we would have been seeing this - in every theater you can name - and I don't mean the movies.
How about this idea? These people are performing these horrific acts for a couple of reasons:

Their clerics are going on Arab TV/radio and declaring it to be justified, no matter what the Quran may say, because the idea is already formed in their minds/souls, and maybe more importantly, they think if this kind of punishment is broadcast more and more on American TV, the people of this country will sour towards this conflict, the legislative and execitive bodies will be forced to withdraw our troops, and they will win.

Democracy will have failed, and they can go back to their tribal, chaotic form of rule.

 

[Ken King]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vrai is right...

Originally posted by penncam
Sorry Ken, that is a pretty good stretch of the imagination. In other words, you think the bad guys are going around and viewing their dead comrades, critically observing what wounds caused their deaths, and making the leap that these results are their justification for the willful dismemberment of the enemy's body?
If that were so, then throughout modern warfare, we would have been seeing this - in every theater you can name - and I don't mean the movies.
How about this idea? These people are performing these horrific acts for a couple of reasons:

Their clerics are going on Arab TV/radio and declaring it to be justified, no matter what the Quran may say, because the idea is already formed in their minds/souls, and maybe more importantly, they think if this kind of punishment is broadcast more and more on American TV, the people of this country will sour towards this conflict, the legislative and execitive bodies will be forced to withdraw our troops, and they will win.

Democracy will have failed, and they can go back to their tribal, chaotic form of rule.

No stretch, they are after all collecting and burying the dead, aren’t they? They see what happens when you take on the business end of some of our gear. Needless to say, it isn’t pretty, just like the images we are seeing of how they treat the remains of our people.

I also prefaced my comment with “maybe”, meaning it could be, not that it absolutely is. Who knows why they do what they do, it could be strictly cultural and how one views or treats the remains of a passed individual. I however think it is just fanatical ranting and raving trying to stir the people up. They know which buttons to push on the people and are doing it not for religious gain but for other reasons.

The point is that many try to make this solely a religious argument (Muslim vs. Christian) and it might not be that at all. Based on what their version of guidance states, Allah might not look upon them with as much favor as he does those that do not do these acts. These clerics are skewing it for some, or many, reasons that we do not understand and if you cared to check not all Muslim clerics are doing this.

The one reason you opine about getting us to soften and leave Iraq is ridiculous at best, from my perspective. All acts like this do are to make us more committed to persevering and holding the course of action.