Are Catholic Beliefs and Practices Biblical?

[Starman3000m]

Starman--I'm tossing you a bone here:

FAQ #1 - Where is that in Scripture?

Brought to you from the folks trying to have this declared infalliable.

When all is said and done: Where in the Holy Bible does it actually state that Mary would join Jesus Christ in Heaven to become another "Heavenly Advocate," "Mediatrix," "Benefactress," "spouse of the Holy Spirit," "Queen of Heaven," "co-Redemptrix," etc., ???? Or that the Disciples were also going to take a place in Heaven to become "patron saints" that people could pray to instead of praying directly to God?

Had those qualities been given to Mary (and Disciples) from the start, Jesus would have affirmed it during His Ministry and His Disciples would have included such teachings in the Gospels and New Testament writings. Instead, the RCC introduced and added those teachings a few hundred years later - after the fact. The RCC Catechism constitutes "another gospel" which then introduces "another Jesus" that totally contradicts New Testament teachings.

Additionally, Messianic Jews who have accepted Christ as their Jewish Moshiach to this day have no teaching whatsoever that agrees with the Roman introduction of additional "mediators" in Heaven. The testimony of Messianic Jews would have been the most reliable since the very first several thousand men, women and children who placed faith in Jesus were all from the varying tribes of Israel.

The RCC is preaching "another gospel" and "another Jesus"

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

 

[Radiant1]

When all is said and done...

When all is said and done, Trinity is not explicit in the bible, but yet you believe it. Marian doctrines are scriptural, you just don't want to believe it. That's your problem, not ours.

 

[onel0126]

When all is said and done: Where in the Holy Bible does it actually state that Mary would join Jesus Christ in Heaven to become another "Heavenly Advocate," "Mediatrix," "Benefactress," "spouse of the Holy Spirit," "Queen of Heaven," "co-Redemptrix," etc., ???? Or that the Disciples were also going to take a place in Heaven to become "patron saints" that people could pray to instead of praying directly to God?

Had those qualities been given to Mary (and Disciples) from the start, Jesus would have affirmed it during His Ministry and His Disciples would have included such teachings in the Gospels and New Testament writings. Instead, the RCC introduced and added those teachings a few hundred years later - after the fact. The RCC Catechism constitutes "another gospel" which then introduces "another Jesus" that totally contradicts New Testament teachings.

Additionally, Messianic Jews who have accepted Christ as their Jewish Moshiach to this day have no teaching whatsoever that agrees with the Roman introduction of additional "mediators" in Heaven. The testimony of Messianic Jews would have been the most reliable since the very first several thousand men, women and children who placed faith in Jesus were all from the varying tribes of Israel.

The RCC is preaching "another gospel" and "another Jesus"

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

I looked in my Bible a minute ago. Now, granted mine has more books than yours, but I can't find the verse that says (and I'll put it in the KJV vernacular so you can easily understand it) Ifith it ainteth contained withinith, it happened not?

 

[Starman3000m]

I looked in my Bible a minute ago. Now, granted mine has more books than yours, but I can't find the verse that says (and I'll put it in the KJV vernacular so you can easily understand it) Ifith it ainteth contained withinith, it happened not?

Does your version of the Catholic Bible indicate that Mary and the "patron saints" would be intermediaries in Heaven alongside Jesus?

article excerpt:

Mary
by Matt Slick

Mary occupies a unique place in biblical history. She conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then she bore the Messiah. Among women, she is most blessed (Luke 1:42) and all who claim to be Christian acknowledge her as a chosen vessel of God. While Christians admit Mary's uniqueness, the Catholic church has, in its own words, "clarified her position and nature through Sacred Tradition." Through the centuries, more and more doctrines concerning her have been revealed. For example:

1. Mary is called the Mother of God. AD 431
2. Prayers offered to Mary AD 600
3. Immaculate Conception (that she was sinless) AD 1854
4. Assumption of Mary AD 1950
5. Mary Proclaimed Mother of the Church AD 1965

An article appeared in Newsweek Magazine (8/25/97, p. 49) which examined an issue developing in Catholicism where petitioners are requesting the Pope to exercise papal infallibility to proclaim Mary as "Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." To its credit, the Catholic church rejected this request. But it is a telling statement of the Catholic adoration of Mary -- even when that adoration exceeds biblical boundaries.

Some of the many titles of Mary

1."The mother of the members of Christ" (par. 963).
2.Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, & Mediatrix
(CCC 969)
3."Queen over all things" (par. 966).
4.Spouse of the Holy Spirit (Vatican: the Holy See)
5.Mary Queen of the Apostles
6.Queen of angels
7.Queen of prophets
8.Holy Mother of God
9.Mother of the Church
10.Mother of divine grace
1.Mirror of justice
2.Seat of wisdom
3.Mystical rose
4.Tower of David
5.Morning star
6.Gate of heaven
7.Queen of peace
8.Queen of the universe
9.Cause of our joy
10.Glory of Israel
11.Ark of the covenant
12.Refuge of sinners

Works of Mary
•By Mary's prayers, she delivers souls from death (par. 966).
•"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). Quote in Context.
•"This mother...is waiting and preparing your home for you" (Handbook for Todays Catholic, p.31).
Other
•She remained a virgin after the birth of Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
•"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an epitome of the whole Gospel," (par. 971).
•Mary, "...when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven..." (par. 974).
•"Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son" (Vatican Council II, p. 421).
•"Preserved free from all stain of original sin" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 966).

As you can see, Mary holds an exalted position in Catholic theology. Because of her exalted position in heaven, she is able to approach the Son with requests and petitions from her followers. She is prayed to, adored, and sought by millions of devotees.

Mary is Most Blessed Among Women
Mary is undoubtedly blessed among women (Luke 1:42). But, is it appropriate to attribute to her such titles as "Our Queen, Our Mother, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope"? I cannot see how it is. Was she sinless? It would seem not since she said she needed a savior in Luke 1:47, "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." Did she remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Again, it seems not since Matt. 1:25 says that Joseph, ". . .kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." Does she mediate and intercede for sinners? Again, the scriptures seem to contradict this when it states that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). Is she exalted above all angels? There is no scripture stating so. Can she simultaneously hear the prayers of countless people all over the world in different languages? Again, there is nothing in God's word to lead us to believe this.

Please understand that CARM is not attacking Mary or her wonderful position in history. Rather, it seeks to examine her position according to biblical revelation and answer the questions just posed. Hopefully, faithfully, and according to God's word, we can look at Scripture to find the answers.

Mary | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[onel0126]

Does your version of the Catholic Bible indicate that Mary and the "patron saints" would be intermediaries in Heaven alongside Jesus?

article excerpt:

From the author's background page, and I quote "Two years ago I was ordained by my church as an assistant pastor and as an Internet missionary."

Done. All I needed to hear. Slick, Houdmann, all the same......

 

[Starman3000m]

From the author's background page, and I quote "Two years ago I was ordained by my church as an assistant pastor and as an Internet missionary."

Done. All I needed to hear. Slick, Houdmann, all the same......

Hmmm... The studious, "religious" and legalistic Pharisees would have done much the same; written off any credibility of Christ's Disciples because of their "background".

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

 

[retiredweaxman]

Hmmm... The studious, "religious" and legalistic Pharisees would have done much the same; written off any credibility of Christ's Disciples because of their "background".

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

SM - please allow me to play "devil's" advocate (sorry for the choice of words)...

Knowing what I know about you and your beliefs only from what I read on this forum, perhaps ONE was making a reference that you are quoting someone that was ordained by a Church - the same Church that you state misleads its people and puts out bad information.

If that is the case about the Church (and I am not saying it is), wouldn't his being ordained by a faulty organization thus make his "ordination" faulty and suspect at best in your own eyes? If so, how can you quote that individual?

Is his Church part of the RCC? If not, again I ask...how can you quote someone that is not part of the "real" church?

 

[Starman3000m]

SM - please allow me to play "devil's" advocate (sorry for the choice of words)...

Knowing what I know about you and your beliefs only from what I read on this forum, perhaps ONE was making a reference that you are quoting someone that was ordained by a Church - the same Church that you state misleads its people and puts out bad information.

If that is the case about the Church (and I am not saying it is), wouldn't his being ordained by a faulty organization thus make his "ordination" faulty and suspect at best in your own eyes? If so, how can you quote that individual?

Is his Church part of the RCC? If not, again I ask...how can you quote someone that is not part of the "real" church?

The "True and Real Church of Christ" encompasses the Spiritual Body of individual Believers, Jews and Gentiles wordwide, who have placed faith in Christ alone as Lord and Saviour, been Born-Again as Jesus said one must be and who are led by the Indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to be our Comforter and Teacher. IOW: God's Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ on earth in the here and now; not papal authority.

Additionally, the "Church" that Christ spoke of is not a denominational "religion" led by the doctrines and traditions of man as the RCC has established itself to be.

Each true believer is a building block of Christ's Spiritual Church and He is the Chief Corner Stone.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (1 Peter 2:5-6)

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:18-22)

 

[ItalianScallion]

So only two churches (Catholic and Orthodox) have existed since the days of Jesus and could be his church, and there are only two churches that have existed during that whole time that have not been destroyed. There are only two Churches that bears the four marks of his Church; One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. And there is only one church that still retains the direct successor to Peter and this is the Church Jesus Christ founded and that Church is The Catholic Church.

First off, you should learn to use paragraphs.
Second, you have a LOT to learn about God's true and only church. He never called it: "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic", the RCC did...on a BIG assumption. God's true church would never contradict God's teaching as they so often do.

Jesus himself tells St. Peter what he binds on earth will be bound in Heaven; he does not say it has to be in the Bible. You believe in the Holy Trinity (not found in the Bible), you believe that Jesus was both God and man and the Holy Spirit is truly God, all affirmed by Church Councils. You also believe the Bishops of the Council of Carthage were inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the New Testament, but the same council was wrong about the Old Testament. Why?

You need to go and learn what that verse about "binding" means.

Actually the Trinity IS found in the Bible; the word Trinity isn't but there is nothing wrong with using other words to describe Bible concepts. NOTICE: I said to describe BIBLE concepts. I did NOT say it was ok to make up words that invent concepts not in the Bible.

Next, you should read some of the millions of threads here that explain about "context" in the Bible. Context is what makes many Catholic views, not truth. Some of their views do not fit correctly when viewed in the context of the entire Bible. Somewhere, they will contradict a verse or verses. You can't always let a verse stand alone and expect to get the correct meaning out of it.

Why would the Holy Spirit leave the Church, he cannot for Jesus said he would be with us always.

The Holy Spirit isn't the one who left the church. The RCC leaders were the ones who parted company with God's truth...Can you say Constantine?

...Just tell me how you know the perfect interpretation of the Bible but the Church Jesus Christ and his Apostles built does not?

Context Context Context

 

[hvp05]

Actually the Trinity IS found in the Bible; the word Trinity isn't but there is nothing wrong with using other words to describe Bible concepts. NOTICE: I said to describe BIBLE concepts. I did NOT say it was ok to make up words that invent concepts not in the Bible.

Uh-huh.

There is nothing wrong with using a name to describe someone or something in the Bible AS LONG AS THEY'RE REALLY IN THERE: Trinity, rapture, Theanthropus, Christophony, Theophany etc.

The "rapture" is not specifically outlined either, but pieced together from several different verses and interpretations. The idea wasn't solidified until the mid-1800s. Yet you believe in it.

 

[ItalianScallion]

If these are the only issues that cannot be in dispute, then you and SM have no issues with the RCC. We recognize all of these Truths. That we hold other things to be Truth as well should make no difference to you two, and our salvation, at all.

You say that you believe what we do but, in a way, you don't. If we could get you folks to just believe the entire Bible, none of this would be necessary. If you did, you'd start adjusting your thinking to fit that of the Bible instead of arguing against it with the RCC teachings.

 

[ItalianScallion]

FAQ #1 - Where is that in Scripture?

Some really bad twisting of the meaning of Scripture, please try again...

 

[Bird Dog]

The RCC is preaching "another gospel" and "another Jesus"

There Is Only One Truth (John 14:6)

There is only one Jesus and one Gospel


The church of Starman------------------>coming to a stripmall near you!

Free crucifixes so you can use them to bash stautes of the Saints

 

[Anabaptist]

I can.

I have no desire to get back into debating yet again on this forum, so let me dispel your ignorance as simply as possible.

In Catholic thought redemption is not synonymous with salvation; hence, infant baptism.

Biblical access was never withheld from the "common" people (your term not mine). Back in the day, there was no printing press. Bibles were painstakingly copied on vellum or some other material. Bibles were chained in the churches, not to keep people from it, but to keep someone from stealing it and therefore the "common" people having no access. Fact: Sts. Cyril and Methodius actually created the Cyrillic alphabet for the Slavonic language while on their missions in order to give the Slavonic people access to the Scriptures; that's hardly an act of a church attempting to keep it out of the "common" people's hands. In addition, there are over 20,000 sects of Protestantism that have arose within the last 500 years all with various intepretations of God's Word, which has created factions and disunity amongst the Christian faithful. Perhaps the Catholic Church failed in NOT keeping the scriptures out of the hands of the "common" people.

Nature abhors a vacuum. When Roman social institutions began to fall, the Catholic Church was the only entity in place to pick up the pieces. Culture of that day is very different from culture this day, but even so we still see the Christian right attempting to foist it's views upon the "common" people via our supposedly secular gov't. Oddly, that Christian right also favors the death penalty for criminals. And, I don't really have need to mention King Henry and Queen Elizabeth's progroms against Catholics, the Loyalist Protestant English paramilitary against the Catholic Irish, or the Virginia Protestant colony usurping Maryland Catholic colonial gov't (founded on religious tolerance) outlawing the Catholic Mass, do I? Such actions incited by both the Anglican church and English gov't, are also a result of the culture of the day, and I might add far more historically recent.

All of that aside, only the Catholic and Orthodox churches have an historical lineage to Jesus and the apostles. If those aren't "true" then Jesus was wrong when He said "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it [the church]". You are saying that the Son of God is a liar. As for myself, I wouldn't be so bold.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I find it funny that later posters refer to me as a troll for stating the Roman Catholic's role in the Dark Ages and as late as the 1600's with historical accuracy.

Before the Protestant Reformation the Catholic church politically ruled Europe. The rising Protestants did little for the cause of religious liberty as well. God's truth has always been preserved through His remnant. Anyway, under Catholic rule it was a capital crime to adhere to any other belief than that of the Catholic church. People were imprisoned, tortured, and put to death for having doctrine contrary to the Roman Catholic Church.

The printing press was invented in 1440; therefore, in the latter end of Catholic rule there was full capability to give scripture to the common man. Yet it was only legal to have God's Word in Latin. Bibles in the native tongues of the people were burnt and those possessing them were punished, often with death. William Tyndale gave his life to give the English speaking people the scripture in a language that they can read.

And what about the theological scare tactics that were used to sell indulgences? How about the selling of false relics?

The Roman Catholic Church having direct lineage to the Apostles is a lie formed by Catholic revisionists. The Roman Catholic Church began with Constantine when he adopted Christianity as his religion and made it the state religion of the Roman Empire. This marriage of church and state began the reign of the Roman Catholic Church.

Jesus said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14) God's people are not whole kingdoms or political giants. God's people are a remnant, and they seek a city whose builder and maker is God. This world is not there home. They belong to the kingdom of God.

Any person who studies scripture can see the following Roman Catholic errors are undeniable heresies:

-Human appointed ecclesiastical authorities as the final authority in matters of faith and practice.

-Adoration of Mary

-Prayers to the Saints

-Infant baptism

-Work based salvation

-Prayer for the dead

-Purgatory

And more more . . .

 

[Anabaptist]

Also, it was 1229 A.D. that scripture was officially forbidden to be in the hands of laymen at the Council of Valencia.

 

[onel0126]

I find it funny that later posters refer to me as a troll for stating the Roman Catholic's role in the Dark Ages and as late as the 1600's with historical accuracy.

Before the Protestant Reformation the Catholic church politically ruled Europe. The rising Protestants did little for the cause of religious liberty as well. God's truth has always been preserved through His remnant. Anyway, under Catholic rule it was a capital crime to adhere to any other belief than that of the Catholic church. People were imprisoned, tortured, and put to death for having doctrine contrary to the Roman Catholic Church.

The printing press was invented in 1440; therefore, in the latter end of Catholic rule there was full capability to give scripture to the common man. Yet it was only legal to have God's Word in Latin. Bibles in the native tongues of the people were burnt and those possessing them were punished, often with death. William Tyndale gave his life to give the English speaking people the scripture in a language that they can read.

And what about the theological scare tactics that were used to sell indulgences? How about the selling of false relics?

The Roman Catholic Church having direct lineage to the Apostles is a lie formed by Catholic revisionists. The Roman Catholic Church began with Constantine when he adopted Christianity as his religion and made it the state religion of the Roman Empire. This marriage of church and state began the reign of the Roman Catholic Church.

Jesus said "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14) God's people are not whole kingdoms or political giants. God's people are a remnant, and they seek a city whose builder and maker is God. This world is not there home. They belong to the kingdom of God.

Any person who studies scripture can see the following Roman Catholic errors are undeniable heresies:

-Human appointed ecclesiastical authorities as the final authority in matters of faith and practice.

-Adoration of Mary

-Prayers to the Saints

-Infant baptism

-Work based salvation

-Prayer for the dead

-Purgatory

And more more . . .

And a representative from another one of the 30k speaks....Anabaptists in the hizzle....

 

[Mongo53]

Hello, the Space Shuttle was invented in 1980, obvously the only reason the common man has NOT had a ride on it is because baptist have plotted to keep it from the common people.

Like most new technologies, they do improve and reduce costs, but NOT right away it is gradual. It was hundreds of years after the printing press before common people could have books, and very few at that, and the first ones were the bible. Lets NOT forget, very few people could read in Dark Ages, so what is the point of giving them books?

The Catholic Church went through a period of reformation. Yes, there were abuses and custom from wrong head thinking, in every aspect of life in Europe, government, culture and religion. Why do you think they call it the DARK AGES?

Any person who studies scripture can see the following Baptist errors are undeniable heresies:

-SELF appointed ecclesiastical authorities as the final authority in matters of faith and practice.

-Rejection of Mary

-Rejection of the Saints

-Obsesion with baptism beyond what it is in the scriptures

-Faith based salvation that is exactly the bapitist faith, never meet a bapitist, you're going to hell boy.


Please most baptist are NOT like you, I do NOT see the difference between us as some heresy.

But, it appears like Italian Scallion, and many Islamic Fascist of the middle east, you are still in the Dark Ages and know for a fact the will of god and the truth.

 

[Anabaptist]

Hello, the Space Shuttle was invented in 1980, obvously the only reason the common man has NOT had a ride on it is because baptist have plotted to keep it from the common people.

With the right amount of money one could ride a space shuttle without being burned at the stake.

Like most new technologies, they do improve and reduce costs, but NOT right away it is gradual. It was hundreds of years after the printing press before common people could have books, and very few at that, and the first ones were the bible. Lets NOT forget, very few people could read in Dark Ages, so what is the point of giving them books?

That doesn't change the fact that Catholic authorities put people to death for printing Bibles and distributing them. That was all through the 1500's and into the 1600's in some regions.

The Catholic Church went through a period of reformation. Yes, there were abuses and custom from wrong head thinking, in every aspect of life in Europe, government, culture and religion. Why do you think they call it the DARK AGES?

Yet these abuses carried into the Renaissance era.

Any person who studies scripture can see the following Baptist errors are undeniable heresies:

Obsesion with baptism beyond what it is in the scriptures

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Do your infants repent?

-Faith based salvation that is exactly the bapitist faith,

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

But, it appears like Italian Scallion, and many Islamic Fascist of the middle east, you are still in the Dark Ages and know for a fact the will of god and the truth.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" (Matthew 7:24)

 

[Mongo53]

With the right amount of money one could ride a space shuttle without being burned at the stake.

That doesn't change the fact that Catholic authorities put people to death for printing Bibles and distributing them. That was all through the 1500's and into the 1600's in some regions.

Yet these abuses carried into the Renaissance era.

So what was the Bapist church doing during the Dark Ages? Where is the scripture reference for holding a child to account for the sins of his father?

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Yep, I can clearly see the age requirement there.

Do your infants repent?

How many Hard Drinking, Swearing, Fighting, Stealing and Whoring Infants have you met?But they do, as you wash away original sin.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Exactly, a native of some isolated island that has never met a baptist in his entire life, can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" (Matthew 7:24)

heareth and then doeth, implies understanding, NOT rote repeating.

 

[Anabaptist]

So what was the Bapist church doing during the Dark Ages

Ask a Baptist.

Where is the scripture reference for holding a child to account for the sins of his father?

You will have to show that since that is Catholic doctrine. Exodus 34:7? "Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

That's not a reference to individual sin, but rather judgment for sin.

Yep, I can clearly see the age requirement there.

The command to repent is applied logic that the baptized person must be able to repent of sin. All instances of baptism in scripture are adult believers that repented.

How many Hard Drinking, Swearing, Fighting, Stealing and Whoring Infants have you met?But they do, as you wash away original sin.

The scripture teaches we are born with an inherited sin nature, not sin itself. Do you allege that a dead unbaptized infant would face judgment for having the sin of Adam?

Here is an illustration given in Isaiah: "For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

Exactly, a native of some isolated island that has never met a baptist in his entire life, can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Correct.