Are they more important to you?

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
I thought I read somewhere that "All men are created equal".

Inasmuch as they all hold the same inalienable rights by their Creator. The status conferred upon men is of no concern to Deity as far as rights and eternity. Kings and paupers will be side by side in heaven - and hell. In THAT respect, all men are the same.

But that idea has never been true on a practical level - kill all the generals and commanders, and the war is basically over. Kill all the medics, and the battle can be won. Because while men may be equal before God as far as their salvation, they are clearly NOT equal in their abilities or their function in the world.

There's little question that some men ARE more important to the security of a nation than others. There's NO question that my children's lives are far more important than my own. In THAT sense, no, we're not equal.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Are we less important?

It's just that simple.

John Boehner, nominal head of the GOP as he is the most powerful elected GOP'er in the land, should walk out, today, in front of the cameras and ask;

"Why are the presidents children worth protecting by good guys with guns and your kids are not? Why is my workplace worth protecting with guns and yours is not? Do you work for me or do I work for you? If I work for you, why am I, why is the president, why are our kids more valuable than the people we work for? What other parts of the constitution are subject to the passions of the day?"
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
It's just that simple.

John Boehner, nominal head of the GOP as he is the most powerful elected GOP'er in the land, should walk out, today, in front of the cameras and ask;

"Why are the presidents children worth protecting by good guys with guns and your kids are not? Why is my workplace worth protecting with guns and yours is not? Do you work for me or do I work for you? If I work for you, why am I, why is the president, why are our kids more valuable than the people we work for? What other parts of the constitution are subject to the passions of the day?"

Because he knows it could hurt his chances of being re-elected.

That's what it's all about.

That's why you see these non profit groups making the biggest stand.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Because he knows it could hurt his chances of being re-elected.

HOW????

If, and this is only an 'if', if the GOP is the party of your rights AND, as we've seen, most people agree with the right to keep and bear arms, wouldn't this not only HELP re-election but also bring a tidal wave of campaign dough from gun nuts all over the nation?

I mean, to me, he could use this issue, the reasoning behind it, to win other battles be it taxes, spending or even the fight (if there's to be one) over repealing Obama-don't-care.

I believe he personally could care less which is why I don't have the warm and fuzzies for the GOP of late; no principles.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
HOW????

If, and this is only an 'if', if the GOP is the party of your rights AND, as we've seen, most people agree with the right to keep and bear arms, wouldn't this not only HELP re-election but also bring a tidal wave of campaign dough from gun nuts all over the nation?

I mean, to me, he could use this issue, the reasoning behind it, to win other battles be it taxes, spending or even the fight (if there's to be one) over repealing Obama-don't-care.

I believe he personally could care less which is why I don't have the warm and fuzzies for the GOP of late; no principles.

I mean, why else hasn't he made every effort to put the president on blast to the public?

I bellieve many people, this past election voted for the lesser of two evils.....on both sides.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I mean, why else hasn't he made every effort to put the president on blast to the public?

I bellieve many people, this past election voted for the lesser of two evils.....on both sides.

Maybe you're right. But, again, if that's the case, if GOP'ers are intentionally trying to get elected as some sort of Dem lite, there is even less reason to support them.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Maybe you're right. But, again, if that's the case, if GOP'ers are intentionally trying to get elected as some sort of Dem lite, there is even less reason to support them.

I think there was some evidence during this last election that Romney and Obama really weren't that different on most issues.

It really came out during the last debate on foreign policy.

Unfortunately, it seemed many people on the left used the "he just seems like a robot" excuse as a reason not to vote for him.

Just another reason to vote 3rd party. It seems they ar the ones who really want to help American. why else would they run 3rd party? :lol:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Inasmuch as they all hold the same inalienable rights by their Creator. The status conferred upon men is of no concern to Deity as far as rights and eternity. Kings and paupers will be side by side in heaven - and hell. In THAT respect, all men are the same.

But that idea has never been true on a practical level - kill all the generals and commanders, and the war is basically over. Kill all the medics, and the battle can be won. Because while men may be equal before God as far as their salvation, they are clearly NOT equal in their abilities or their function in the world.

There's little question that some men ARE more important to the security of a nation than others. There's NO question that my children's lives are far more important than my own. In THAT sense, no, we're not equal.

Again, I’m not suggesting AT ALL that presidents and other ‘important’ people shouldn’t have proper security to protect them. And I have no problem paying for it. We elect them into public office, we should pay for their protection. Fine! But are we any less that we should not, at a minimum, be allowed to protect ourselves and our property of through own means? Should we not be allowed to arm ourselves, at least in manner that we deem sufficient? If I feel my life, and my family’s, and my property could be threatened with a semi-automatic weapon, should I not be able to defend that with something of equal or better defense? Is my life – LIFE – any less valuable in this world that I should not be able to do that? Isn’t THAT the premise of ‘all men are created equal’?
 

BOP

Well-Known Member
As far as lives go, no. My life is just as important to me and my family and friends as theirs.

In the big scheme of things, maybe. If I get shot, the country will go on. For upper members of Congress and the presidency, loss of one individual can trigger a series of events that could be catastrophic for the country. But would also think that they do, or should, have contingency plans in place so those kinds of issues are minimal.

Yeah, like Biden becoming President. Talk about disasters!
 

abcxyz

New Member
Yeah, like Biden becoming President. Talk about disasters!

I never thought I'd said I wish H.Clinton won in 2008 but as I puke in my mouth saying this, I do.

At this point I think I'd rather take my chances with ol' Joe than Obama.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Again, I’m not suggesting AT ALL that presidents and other ‘important’ people shouldn’t have proper security to protect them. And I have no problem paying for it. We elect them into public office, we should pay for their protection. Fine! ?

What???? Why? If someone chooses to SERVE the public, to volunteer to work in a government of, by and for the people, the LAST thing they should ever be is more important than the people they have taken an oath to SERVE.

I was pondering this irony the other day, how, having started this nation rejecting a king, as the US walks deliberately towards her own death, it will be, it is, under leaders who are FAR more like the king our founders rejected than the men and women who lead us in rejecting that form of government.

Think about that.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
I was pondering this irony the other day, how, having started this nation rejecting a king, as the US walks deliberately towards her own death, it will be, it is, under leaders who are FAR more like the king our founders rejected than the men and women who lead us in rejecting that form of government.

Maybe it IS the ubiquity of guns.

Time was, the White House didn't even have a fence around it. Woodrow Wilson had SHEEP grazing on the property. Hoover used to regular greet tourists on the White House lawn.

Then they put a fence around it.

After Oklahoma City, they took away traffic flow and erected barriers. After 9/11, they seriously restricted all airspace around Washington.

I don't know how other nations deal with this. But I know that American presidents are in the cross-hairs, constantly, of people around the globe - and people living right here. And it's becoming increasingly easier to do that.

How do you keep Presidents from being killed WITHOUT an intense wall of security around them?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
How do you keep Presidents from being killed WITHOUT an intense wall of security around them?

Is that the most important thing, the protection of the president? Or, are his policies more important?

It seems to me we have two paths to choose; one, the fear based, wall and security at all and ANY cost or, two, how we conduct ourselves with other nations.

One, the president is no longer a servant of the people, no longer one of us. He, or she, is a monarch, an indispensable person. Two, they are JUST the president, just a senator, just a House member. ONE of us.

One, we can do whatever we want, any level of intrigue or double dealing or what have you, to anyone and, while everyone else has to pay the price, at least our monarch is safe. Two, we look well past the price of a barrel of oil and any other political expediency and focus on how to get along with other nations because our president is very much going to have to deal with the consequences of our geopolitics along with everyone else.

Point being, there is, of course, an impact to ones approach, to ones decisions if you KNOW you are the most protected person on the planet vs. merely having personal protection so you can move about unhindered by pan handlers, the media and the odd psycho.

This all boils down to who we are and what we want to be as a people. As per the Franklin quote, we may well have incredible safety but, at what cost? Franklin says the cost is liberty. I say it is also policy which gets back to liberty be it economics, geo politics, or, of course, war.

I mean, would bin Laden have still continued his attacks on the US if we said "Hey, you can harm American's, even our president if you really want to because a free people will ALWAYS and by definition be vulnerable in an open society but, guess what pal, we WILL wipe you and your team off the face of the globe if you do."

Consider. If Saudi Arabia, home of most of the people that attacked us on 9/11, as well as bin Laden, knew we would, rightly, blame them and take it out on them for their radical problem, wouldn't they have long ago shut someone like that down, long before they were a real threat to us? Simple self interest. As it is, they, the place where our most hard core enemies have come from and still come from, have benefited most from 9/11.

If you think about it, our war on terror is nothing but a symptomatic war. We can only attack symptoms, guaranteeing the core problem, the disease, if you will, will always be there because we are not doing, and can not, do anything about it at that level. Only the Saudi's can. Only Iran can.

I'm probably not communicating this very well but, there is something, perhaps much, perhaps all, as Franklin argues, lost with this security at all costs approach. Would it be that bad were Bush or Obama killed by Islamic fundamentalists? For them sure, but, for us, as a people, we would then stop pussy footing around and fix the problem once and for all and move on in peace. Or, those fundamentalists nations and leaders would fix the problem before it ever affected us. A president, plainly stated, in our system is dispensable. So is a Senator or Representative. Freedom and liberty are not supposed to be.

:popcorn:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
After Oklahoma City, they took away traffic flow and erected barriers. ?

And I hated that. The White House is as much a symbol as anything else and when you isolate it that way, you take that symbol away from the people it is meant for to a very real degree. I grew up driving past the WH, all the time. It was JUST the White House. Where our president lives. Now, it is this isolated thing, the place where our king lives.

I was hoping that the first thing Dubbya did when he took office was to re-open Pennsylvania Avenue.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
I'm probably not communicating this very well but,

Maybe not. I can't think of a way easier to disrupt a powerful nation than to continually attack its leaders, because they have such minimal security.

In the early days of the Republic, how easy would it have been to **** the first dozen Presidents? You had to be armed, you had to be near the President and you had to know where he was going to be.

Being near him was tough enough, since most of the nation lived sufficiently far enough away that a quick trip to wherever he was wouldn't have been easy. Knowing where he'd be was also not easy, unless you lived fairly close to Washington or if by some chance, you knew ahead of time - such as was the case with Garfield, McKinley or the attempt on Reagan.

So Presidents were protected largely due to distance and a lack of information. Not the case today.

You needed to shoot at close range then. Not so, today.

It was more difficult then. That's changed.

-
-
-

I don't think a tragedy such as the loss of a President by an enemy power would stir sufficient outrage as you suggest, when it is simpler to just ramp up the security.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Maybe not. I can't think of a way easier to disrupt a powerful nation than to continually attack its leaders, because they have such minimal security.

In the early days of the Republic, how easy would it have been to **** the first dozen Presidents? You had to be armed, you had to be near the President and you had to know where he was going to be. .

And yet you just pointed out how it didn't happen very often to VERY exposed presidents.

Further, what does it say about a 'powerful' nation if losing one person is such a big deal? The founders didn't put in place a secession plan because we could never afford for ONE man to die, naturally or otherwise.

You ask yourself if we are a better nation since we started treating Presidents like kings or not and go from there.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
You needed to shoot at close range then. Not so, today.

It was more difficult then. That's changed.

- .

How so? You could kill a man at 700 yards in 1865. You just pointed out how, until recently, our presidents were very accessible. Harry Truman used to walk to lunch every day.

So, given the fact that you could kill a president, easily, for most of our history, and yet it was very rare, consider what came first; this desire to keep the president in a protective case or the policies that make us think it's a good idea?
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
What???? Why? If someone chooses to SERVE the public, to volunteer to work in a government of, by and for the people, the LAST thing they should ever be is more important than the people they have taken an oath to SERVE.

I was pondering this irony the other day, how, having started this nation rejecting a king, as the US walks deliberately towards her own death, it will be, it is, under leaders who are FAR more like the king our founders rejected than the men and women who lead us in rejecting that form of government.

Think about that.

As much as we may hate what our current government represents (themselves), we still need government; we need people willing to do the job. Given they made the decision to hold that office and make decisions that affect all of our lives and we willingly elect them, they should have protection.

But, you made my point… I don’t think they are more important; at least not from the standpoint of their lives being more important. Just like I can be replaced in society, they can be replaced. Their life holds no more value that mine or yours. I should be allowed to defend and protect myself, my family and my property at the same level they deserve. If that requires having weapons of high capacity rounds that should be MY choice.

Americans seem to be willing to give up this right to a government that is incapable of, and has no interested in protecting us; and that we serve them to that end through providing all of the protections they need while they strip ours away.
 
Top