Burden of Proof

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
Actually God allowed evil to enter the world because, when you give humans a choice about good & evil (free will), there will surely be the possibility of evil (Even the angels had free will). If there wasn't, it wouldn't be a choice.
With the odds stacked 99.9% against us, that's some choice. :lol: More people could get to heaven if they chose a belief system randomly from a list rather than following their hearts.


And, btw, God DID "make souls born with this knowledge". He gave us all consciences but, through free will, some have ignored what their consciences have said to them. They're law breakers and, by right, they should be punished, right?
"Law breakers" obviously being the operative term, to include many of the sweetest, nicest people ever to live as well as most of those who sincerely sought spiritual guidance but were somehow misled into the wrong belief by the devil.



Now all we have to do is turn that faith to the right God, soon.

I've given you what I can but you won't believe me. I cannot make you believe so I'll have to hope God opens up your heart & eyes to what you've seen written here.
Why should anyone believe you? By your own account, Satan is all around us trying to divert us and trick us into believing in something other than the real god. You have stated repeatedly not to follow the teachings of men. But we can trust you and your teachings. :rolleyes:

God established a system where he claims to love us, and through his infinite power could prove himself to anyone at anytime, but he has chosen not to do so. If he doesn't prove himself, it is no wonder the VAST majority fail to find him because the system is built to fail.
 

UNA

New Member
Now all we have to do is turn that faith to the right God, soon.

You really don't get it do you...?

ItalianScallion said:
I've given you what I can but you won't believe me. I cannot make you believe so I'll have to hope God opens up your heart & eyes to what you've seen written here. And, no, I'm not giving up on you but what else can I say to you? You counter most of what I've said because you're looking for tangible proof of everything. I should ask you to prove the "love" that you have for your husband. Tangibly you can't prove it, you can only show me evidence of it. Ga'head; try...:howdy:

I've never said that I don't believe ANYTHING that's not tangible, I'm just saying that I don't have facts for those things; love, faith.....

ItalianScallion said:
But you DO want me to change my faith. You're asking me to not tell everyone I have the only truth but that would mean agreeing with the devil and I cannot do that.

I didn't know that lying about whether you have facts was part of your faith...sorry...
 

Marie

New Member
Questions, questions, but maybe I shouldn't jump the gun. Maybe, for instance, God allowed evil to enter the world to test the faitfhulness of our souls? Only problem with this is, God already knew who would pass and who would fail the test without a test of any kind, so it's all pointless. Maybe God allowed evil to enter into the world to teach us lessons about life, but that doesn't really work either because God is omnipotent and could have taught man every lesson he ever needed to know a thousand different ways. God could even have made souls born with this knowledge. Maybe God allowed evil to dominate the world to show us the love of salvation in the afterlife, but then that's sort of creating a problem to solve it, don't you think? Why not just show us love in the afterlife in the first place? Why bother with this material world bussiness anyway since heaven and spirtuality have been the real deal all along?

Plus, isn't unleashing an arsenal of evils on a world of unsuspecting, helpless victims, and then promising to make up for it in some illusive afterlife sort of like a deadbeat dad giving his kid a black eye adn then promising to take him to Disneyland to make up for it? :howdy:

Two things, were talking presuppositional apologetics here. Starting with the fact everyone knows there is a God via conscious and natural revelation. You can dismiss it and deny it, but you still have evidence of Gods existence.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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Point two, it sounds as if you don’t get it, saying its not fair, If you really believe that than you don’t understand that the wages of sin is death, and Gods gracious not to have taken you out yet, and everyday is a gift from God, allowing to turn to Him, ask forgiveness for breaking his laws and setting yourself up as Lord of your life, and putting your faith and trust in him alone to provide you with the ability to be seen as justified in the eyes of God because of Christ sacrifice, made on your behalf.<o:p></o:p>
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
Starting with the fact everyone knows there is a God via conscious and natural revelation.
:lmao: Everyone, really?


Point two, it sounds as if you don’t get it, saying its not fair, If you really believe that than you don’t understand that the wages of sin is death, and Gods gracious not to have taken you out yet, and everyday is a gift from God, allowing to turn to Him, ask forgiveness for breaking his laws and setting yourself up as Lord of your life, and putting your faith and trust in him alone to provide you with the ability to be seen as justified in the eyes of God because of Christ sacrifice, made on your behalf.
Because all that is apparent from observing the world around us. :lol:
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
With the odds stacked 99.9% against us, that's some choice. :lol: More people could get to heaven if they chose a belief system randomly from a list rather than following their hearts.
That's the whole problem. There isn't supposed to be a list of choices. There's only one truth. Do you think that God should save everyone? There should be no justice for really evil people like Hitler, Sadaam, Osama, etc? God's justice system works fairly for all people. All they need to do is follow this one rule and they'd be Heaven bound:

“I am the LORD your God...You shall have no other gods before me".

Seriously; Tell me why this is soo hard for people to do? The problem is that they don't want to. You all are making more excuses than Philadelphia lawyers do. I'm trying to pass the message on to you folks but all you want to do is doubt it. Don't knock it until you've tried it. I've done it and many others on here have too. The only thing holding you back is YOU. Are you concerned that you might lose your popularity or something? There's a lot of sad people on the "other side" right now that wish they'd had one more chance and weren't soo prideful...
hvp05 said:
"Law breakers" obviously being the operative term, to include many of the sweetest, nicest people ever to live as well as most of those who sincerely sought spiritual guidance but were somehow misled into the wrong belief by the devil.
Remember this: It was NOT God's fault that any of them perished. God knows more about us than we do. If they really wanted to follow Him, they would have. Anyone who misses Heaven, misses it because of their own wishes. God has made that abundantly clear. Would you like the verses?
hvp05 said:
Why should anyone believe you? By your own account, Satan is all around us trying to divert us and trick us into believing in something other than the real god. You have stated repeatedly not to follow the teachings of men. But we can trust you and your teachings. :rolleyes:
They asked Jesus, Paul and the Apostles the same thing. Answer: Because what I say (quote) are the very words from God, NOT FROM ME, TYVM. What's written in the Bible is not FROM men; only written BY men at God's direction. So there :razz: :howdy:
hvp05 said:
God established a system where he claims to love us, and through his infinite power could prove himself to anyone at anytime, but he has chosen not to do so. If he doesn't prove himself, it is no wonder the VAST majority fail to find him because the system is built to fail.
So because God doesn't do it YOUR way....what????
You really don't get it do you...?
I completely get it UNA. I'm trying to help YOU get it...
UNA said:
I didn't know that lying about whether you have facts was part of your faith...sorry...
Now I'm a liar? Nice!
 

UNA

New Member
Wirelessly posted

ItalianScallion said:
Now I'm a liar? Nice!

I guess liar is harsh. I should have said delusional. You say you have undeniable, provable, repeatable facts but have yet to show any.

What you REALLY don't seem to understand is that it's OK that you don't have these facts. It doesn't make you wrong (I don't agree with you, but I'll never say you're dead wrong because I don't know any more than you), it just brings you back down th reality. A lack of facts doesn't take anything away from your faith. Faith doesn't need facts. So stop saying you have them, you shouldn't need them. If you do then your faith is weak.
 
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Moxick

Member
Toxick didn't make it.



Around 5:45 PM this afternoon he went into the crapper.

By the time 6:30 rolled around and I didn't hear from him, I started to get worried, and I peeked into the bathroom.



His drawers were laying on top of his slippers, and there was a PCWorld magazine laying facedown by the sink. It's not necessary to get into the contents of the commode, but suffice it to say, it was probably smart that he was seeing a GI doctor before the end, even it turned out to be a moot point.





One can only hope that he managed to perform his post-BM hygiene ritual before being whisked off to the great beyond.

I just felt that everyone should know.
 
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ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
You say you have undeniable, provable, repeatable facts but have yet to show any. What you REALLY don't seem to understand is that it's OK that you don't have these facts. It doesn't make you wrong (I don't agree with you, but I'll never say you're dead wrong because I don't know any more than you), it just brings you back down th reality. A lack of facts doesn't take anything away from your faith. Faith doesn't need facts. So stop saying you have them, you shouldn't need them. If you do then your faith is weak.
UNA, I hear what you're saying but your not correct. My faith is not a blind type of faith. My faith was affirmed one night in July 1989 after hearing and reading about the evidence for God. I didn't just blindly decide to follow Him.

You once said that, if God really is what I say He is, then you're screwed. Is that all you're going to say? Do you really care soo little about your eternal future that you're willing to spend forever in pain and apart from God in a place called Hell? Is you're life really worth nothing to you?

You said you have no proof of your god and I've shown you the very "evidence" that proves that the God I speak of is real but you refuse to believe it because of your need for facts? If God said His creation shows His existence, then a smart person would (as you told me earlier) listen to the fact that many on here are telling you these same things.
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
That's the whole problem. There isn't supposed to be a list of choices. There's only one truth.
I think you missed my point.


Do you think that God should save everyone? There should be no justice for really evil people like Hitler, Sadaam, Osama, etc? God's justice system works fairly for all people. All they need to do is follow this one rule and they'd be Heaven bound:
Perhaps I am wrong, but that seems to be contradictory. You said you want justice for the "really evil people", but then say that anyone can attain a spot in heaven if they repent. So Hitler, et al., could still have made their way to heaven while great, loving people would be sent to burn. That is supposed to be justice?


Seriously; Tell me why this is soo hard for people to do?
See earlier in the thread where I said I do not see god when I look at nature, and below where I chuckled at Marie's statement that "everyone knows" god exists. Perhaps you are predisposed to believe in a deity, and the particular one you do, but not everyone is. Why is that sooo hard for you to understand?


Don't knock it until you've tried it. I've done it and many others on here have too. The only thing holding you back is YOU.
I don't have that many years left in my life to try out every deity available. :lol:


They asked Jesus, Paul and the Apostles the same thing. Answer: Because what I say (quote) are the very words from God, NOT FROM ME, TYVM. What's written in the Bible is not FROM men; only written BY men at God's direction.
Yeah, I know. :coffee:

As I have said previously, there is a VERY high likelihood that I could pray/meditate on it then present what has been revealed to me only to have you come back with, "That's not the real god! :blahblah:"


My faith is not a blind type of faith. My faith was affirmed one night in July 1989 after hearing and reading about the evidence for God. I didn't just blindly decide to follow Him.
That could be an interesting story... :popcorn:
 
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2lazy2P

nothing unreal exists
Why do parents still have kids today, knowing that this world is headed to Hell, they might be born severely handicapped and many of them might end up as failures in life? Why? They want to love them and be loved back by them, just as God does.

Because parents are not aware of there children that are going to be handicapped, that choice was made by them by your loving and caring God.

Who "unleashed the arsenal"? It would be like that if God was the bad guy, but He isn't. WE'RE the bad guys in all this but Jesus took the punishment for our "badness". He said: I love you all soo much that I'll take your punishment (on the Cross) and I'll also provide a way (free of charge) for you to get to Heaven (paraphrased). What more can anyone ask and, yet, people still see Him as a meanie? :shrug:

On the subject of right, I must ask, in the realm of morals and ethics, God dictates what is "good" and what is "bad?" Does God do things because it is "good," or is a thing "good" because God does it? If I say that God does a thing because it is good, this makes morality higher than and independent because of God. In effect, it takes God off the moral necessity market because people can now bypass God and go straight to the morals without any god-belief at all. On the other hand, if I say that a thing is good because God does it, then I face the problem that anything God does I am committed to saying is good, no matter how atrocious that act might be. Such is the case with many of the things in your Holy Bible, which seems quite inhumane and downright barbaric - forgive me for being so blunt.


Read the Bible and God will show you the truth and you won't need ANY outside sources to find what's right and what's wrong.

I have a problem with this statement because I have read the bible. These two quotes but everything into perspective I think:

"Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." ~ Mikhail Bakunin

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." ~ Albert Einstein
 

2lazy2P

nothing unreal exists
Two things, were talking presuppositional apologetics here. Starting with the fact everyone knows there is a God via conscious and natural revelation. You can dismiss it and deny it, but you still have evidence of Gods existence.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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Point two, it sounds as if you don’t get it, saying its not fair, If you really believe that than you don’t understand that the wages of sin is death, and Gods gracious not to have taken you out yet, and everyday is a gift from God, allowing to turn to Him, ask forgiveness for breaking his laws and setting yourself up as Lord of your life, and putting your faith and trust in him alone to provide you with the ability to be seen as justified in the eyes of God because of Christ sacrifice, made on your behalf.<o:p></o:p>

You do understand the definition of an Atheist is someone who is "without theism" right?

I have my share of arguments like this all the time, and the message is the same: "God is out there and unarguable if only you will listen!" It is amazing how many people always look for alternative reasons as to why I don't "see" what they do. They easily forget that I was where they are in theistic belief. I know how believers think and how desperate they are to find evidences to maintain their ideas. If anything, they need to try and "see" what I see now.

This is a serious problem for believers. They keep convincing themselves that they can prove the existence of God, a being who is supposedly unknowable!
 
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libby

New Member
hvp,
I will not deny that believing in God and all of His plans for us requires faith. That said, my first experience with believing there must, must, must be an afterlife was watching someone at the moment of death. He wasn't a loved one of mine, but a patient I worked with and got along with pretty well, so I cared in a way slightly more than in the clinical sense, but by no means super personal. Anyway, one moment he was there, and the next he was gone. At that time it just seemed impossible to me that the essence/spirit/soul of this person was just...gone. It became clear that the body is, indeed, no more than a shell that is a vessel for that which really gives us life. C.S. Lewis said something along the lines of, "You don't have a soul, you have a body. You are a soul." This patient had to be somewhere. Now granted, I was already a believer, so perhaps I am colored by that, but it's a thought for you to consider.
I also ask you to consider the God of Christianity from your experience as a parent (assuming you are one). Out of love you and your husband/wife create this new life. You teach him/her as he grows. What do you want most when he grows up? (IMO) That he believes the things that you taught him were important, that he keeps in contact with you (let's say, once a week?:whistle:) and that he lives up to the full potential that you know he has.
There are some of your teachings that he will reject, willfully or not, and some of those will be small matters, so no biggie. But what if your child became a drug dealer, or a prostitute, for instance? Would you still love them? Of course, but would you let them into your home with that...baggage? I know I would hesitate to let a drug dealing person into my home, as much as I might want to see my kid.
If your kid never lifts a finger to call you, ever! Then one day, after 20 years, calls for money. In the interest of justice, do you just hand it over, or do you think some sort of reconciliation would have to come first?
I could go on, but you get the point. It's not a matter of loving us, but a matter of us showing that we love Him.
For all of the bad things in this world that atheists (and I know you're not claiming to be one), and those angry at God say He is responsible for, does no one stop to think of the beauty He has given us? IMO, it far outweighs the tough stuff. Most importantly, the love of other people, whether they are our children, our friends, or just the kindness of strangers. Small things like the wonderful food that we enjoy, the recreation His creation offers...just...everything. I know I'm getting long-winded, but...
Lastly, if you have children, must they be disciplined/punished for transgressions? How many things, when they are very young, do they not understand are a big deal? They have no idea why they mustn't run into the street; they just have to take your word for it and obey. Later, they become wise enough to understand.
Is it right to let criminals in society go unpunished? Small crimes receive lesser punishments, etc.
What if your young child breaks (willingly or by accident) the proverbial "neighbor's window". Let's pretend it's a big picture window. Can he do some work for you or the neighbor to teach him a lesson? Yup. But, can he really "pay for" the window? No way. So a loving parent will pay the price of the window in full, while allowing the child to offer what he can.
Jesus is God Incarnate. The Father became a man to pay the price that we could not pay for all of the sins that man has committed. We are allowed to participate in the "payback" insofar as we able ( a point of theological difference between SM, IS and the Catholics here), but just like the window example, it cannot be done at all without God made man.
Anyway, dh is home, and my turn to go on a run.
Happy, Holy Sunday.
 

Marie

New Member
You do understand the definition of an Atheist is someone who is "without theism" right?

Oh I understand, I just reject the idea that such a person exist. You know there’s a God and for whatever reason your working or worked very hard to resist that knowledge and convince yourself otherwise.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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If you truly ever had saving faith, you would be calling yourself an atheist now, what you had was an intellectual agreement. Faith is a verb; it requires action and its living it grows. We don’t need to work hard to keep ourselves deluded as the spirit testifies to us while living and working in us.<o:p></o:p>
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Believe what you want to, I can’t change your heart only God can do that, but there are probably one of two reasons your here, either to try to sway others away, or because you long to understand the mystery of true faith.<o:p></o:p>
Like an orphan peeping through the windows of the home of a family, longing that you had that.
<o:p></o:p>
I have my share of arguments like this all the time, and the message is the same: "God is out there and unarguable if only you will listen!" It is amazing how many people always look for alternative reasons as to why I don't "see" what they do. They easily forget that I was where they are in theistic belief. I know how believers think and how desperate they are to find evidences to maintain their ideas. If anything, they need to try and "see" what I see now.

This is a serious problem for believers. They keep convincing themselves that they can prove the existence of God, a being who is supposedly unknowable!
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
I will not deny that believing in God and all of His plans for us requires faith.
Conversely, I am not challenging your faith; it is yours and only you can know it entirely. I am with UNA, in that I don't much care what anyone believes, but when someone begins pronouncing their beliefs as solid fact, I become curious how they can be so certain.


That said, my first experience with believing there must, must, must be an afterlife was watching someone at the moment of death.
I have never had such an experience. In fact, I cannot say I have ever felt something that could only be explained as "supernatural"; perhaps I do not have a soul. :lol: If a deity ever does reveal itself to me in such a way, I think it would be convincing because it would be direct and personal; much better than some generic story of how I'm a sinner.


I also ask you to consider the God of Christianity from your experience as a parent (assuming you are one).
I am not, but I have two of them. :lol:

I got into the parent analogy with PsyOps a while back and he never responded. The way I see it, the god/human relationship is like a parent telling their child, "I want you to grow up to be a software engineer and work at Microsoft. You should own a three bedroom house and have two children. If you choose not to do these things, I will still love you but will never talk to you again." Would a sane parent ever say such a thing? Yet that is the strict line we are expected to follow with god; doing "mostly good" is not good enough, because either you do everything right or you fail.


There are some of your teachings that he will reject, willfully or not, and some of those will be small matters, so no biggie. But what if your child became a drug dealer, or a prostitute, for instance? Would you still love them? Of course, but would you let them into your home with that...baggage? I know I would hesitate to let a drug dealing person into my home, as much as I might want to see my kid.
Leading in from my last statement, there are not degrees of transgression against god; you are either righteous or not. Resultantly, following your death, you will go in one direction or the other.

I enjoy the show "Intervention" and one thing that comes up in every episode is 'tough love'; parents must do it to protect themselves as well as their child because the child is in a downward spiral. I get that. I think if someone does outright reject god, with the consequences in mind, they get what they deserve. What does not make sense, however, is that those who are questioning and those asking for god's help but have been misled by Satan (as SM and IS would say) should also be punished. To bring back the parent/child analogy, if a child is in need of help, a responsible parent will give it to them; but with god we are expected to come to him before he will even consider helping.


For all of the bad things in this world that atheists (and I know you're not claiming to be one)
Actually... :lol:


Anyway, dh is home, and my turn to go on a run.
Thank you for the kind response. THIS is how discussions around here ought to go! :howdy:
 

hvp05

Methodically disorganized
Oh I understand, I just reject the idea that such a person exist.

Believe what you want to...
You stole the words right out of my keyboard. :lmao:


... but there are probably one of two reasons your here, either to try to sway others away, or because you long to understand the mystery of true faith.
Or hidden option three: we find religion and god to be interesting topics, just like politics, various news stories and so forth. Besides, if the skeptics don't come around, who else will correct you literalists when you begin telling your OT stories as if they are real? :lol:
 

UNA

New Member
UNA, I hear what you're saying but your not correct. My faith is not a blind type of faith. My faith was affirmed one night in July 1989 after hearing and reading about the evidence for God. I didn't just blindly decide to follow Him.

I didn't mean to imply that it was...

ItalianScallion said:
You once said that, if God really is what I say He is, then you're screwed. Is that all you're going to say? Do you really care soo little about your eternal future that you're willing to spend forever in pain and apart from God in a place called Hell? Is you're life really worth nothing to you?

I don't believe in the 'punishment' you say is waiting so it's really a non issue to me.

ItalianScallion said:
You said you have no proof of your god and I've shown you the very "evidence" that proves that the God I speak of is real but you refuse to believe it because of your need for facts? If God said His creation shows His existence, then a smart person would (as you told me earlier) listen to the fact that many on here are telling you these same things.

The "evidence" you've managed to show here is no more that circumstantial. See the court of law; these days, you need hard facts to convict someone, witness testimony in NEVER enough and that's what you have. The "evidence" you have shown is either eye-witness or can (and usually does, IMO) actually be evidence for something else.
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
I have never had such an experience. In fact, I cannot say I have ever felt something that could only be explained as "supernatural"; perhaps I do not have a soul. :lol: If a deity ever does reveal itself to me in such a way, I think it would be convincing because it would be direct and personal; much better than some generic story of how I'm a sinner.

I have. I cannot say why some people have such experiences and others do not, as nobody is more deserving of it than another. Regardless, when one does have such experience, it's subjective. Atheists will always reject that as evidence, and rightly so. This is why I fully admit that I believe on purely subjective grounds.

Although UNA is not an Atheist, she is right to insist on the difference between fact and faith.
 

UNA

New Member
Wirelessly posted

Marie said:
You do understand the definition of an Atheist is someone who is "without theism" right?

Oh I understand, I just reject the idea that such a person exist. You know there’s a God and for whatever reason your working or worked very hard to resist that knowledge and convince yourself otherwise.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If you truly ever had saving faith, you would be calling yourself an atheist now, what you had was an intellectual agreement. Faith is a verb; it requires action and its living it grows. We don’t need to work hard to keep ourselves deluded as the spirit testifies to us while living and working in us.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Believe what you want to, I can’t change your heart only God can do that, but there are probably one of two reasons your here, either to try to sway others away, or because you long to understand the mystery of true faith.<o:p></o:p>
Like an orphan peeping through the windows of the home of a family, longing that you had that.
<o:p></o:p>
I have my share of arguments like this all the time, and the message is the same: "God is out there and unarguable if only you will listen!" It is amazing how many people always look for alternative reasons as to why I don't "see" what they do. They easily forget that I was where they are in theistic belief. I know how believers think and how desperate they are to find evidences to maintain their ideas. If anything, they need to try and "see" what I see now.

This is a serious problem for believers. They keep convincing themselves that they can prove the existence of God, a being who is supposedly unknowable!

So to you, us non-Christians don't really believe what we believe, we have seen the proof of Christian God and are intentionally denying Him because we just want to reject him??

You can't say you reject the fact that atheists exist, maybe I misunderstood your comment? There are atheists, I'm married to one :lol: but am not myself am atheist.

Why can't you accept that there are other belief systems out there that are just as viable as your own? That other faiths walk around with just as much conviction as you?
 

libby

New Member
Leading in from my last statement, there are not degrees of transgression against god; you are either righteous or not. Resultantly, following your death, you will go in one direction or the other.

Despite what SM and IS would have you believe, there are degrees of sin. While all sin is offensive to God, some sins are small (what Catholics call "venial"). They are small matters that are just part of the human condition and we do not go to hell for them. Then there are the whoppers, what Catholics call "mortal". A mortal sin is our willful turning away from what God wants. For a sin to be mortal three "factors" have to be met. #1-it's a big deal (murder, rape, etc.) #2-you have to know it's a big deal (not going to Mass would be a mortal sin, but lots of people don't realize this so the sin would not be mortal for them) and #3-you have to do it with full consent of the will. Example. A woman is pregnant, she doesn't really necessarily want an abortion, but she finds no support and/or people are coercing her toward it. The sin would not be mortal for her, even if she has the abortion.
Mortal sin will not get you to hell if you repent of that sin, though. Only God knows our hearts, and if we regret the sin we will go to Heaven.
This segues into Purgatory, but I'll leave that for later.
 
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ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
I think you missed my point.
I probably did. I'm having a real time with some people's underlying meanings on here lately. Please make your answers as: So Md forum replies for dummies so I can follow them...
hvp05 said:
Perhaps I am wrong, but that seems to be contradictory. You said you want justice for the "really evil people", but then say that anyone can attain a spot in heaven if they repent. So Hitler, et al., could still have made their way to heaven while great, loving people would be sent to burn. That is supposed to be justice?
Strange as it sounds, it's absolutely correct. ANYONE can live a life of evil and then decide to turn their lives around and follow God (the real one) before they die and get to Heaven. (The thief on the cross next to Jesus did in Luke 23 v 29-43). People really need to understand that it is NOT our deeds that send us to Hell, it's our refusal to believe in and follow the true God. Our deeds determine how much we are rewarded (if we get to Heaven) or how much we'll be punished (if we miss Heaven)...

God is, first, a forgiving God; wanting to forgive everyone but not everyone will accept His forgiveness. If you won't accept His forgiveness, He'll have to impose His justice on you. No one gets away with anything where God is concerned.

If Osama decided to turn to the true God in his last days, there's a good chance he would have been murdered for it. If he was sincere about it, he would have been forgiven by God and then he'd enter Heaven. Of course he would get there without much, if any, reward from God but he would still get there. Now his evil deeds would cause him a BIG loss of his heavenly reward, (that would be his punishment) but he would have still made it there.
hvp05 said:
Perhaps you are predisposed to believe in a deity, and the particular one you do, but not everyone is. Why is that sooo hard for you to understand? I don't have that many years left in my life to try out every deity available. :lol:
God calls everyone who is able to hear His call (accountable people). He knows that some will say no to Him no matter what He does and some will say yes to Him. To those who say no, He will give them chances to change their minds so they can't say He didn't. To those who will say yes, He guides and protects their lives so they'll become what He wants them to become later in life (Predestination).
hvp05 said:
As I have said previously, there is a VERY high likelihood that I could pray/meditate on it then present what has been revealed to me only to have you come back with, "That's not the real god! :blahblah:"
That could be an interesting story... :popcorn:
It could happen but not if you ask questions and hang here with us; some of us that is... Every new believer needs guidance so they don't stray from the truth.

You can read some of my "story" if you'd like. There is more to it though:
Testimonies
 
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