Calvert Shores: Petition for Municipality Referendum Gets GO

LightRoasted

If I may ...
If I may ...
The minutes of the organizing committee might not necessarily be considered public information yet under the Open Meetings law, which really only covers elected and appointed governmental bodies. HOAs sort of come under that, but with laws covering those organizations not governmental bodies. I'll admit that I'm not positive on how this would be covered. As far as why the lines were drawn where they were, well, they have to be drawn somewhere. Including the Lusby Town Center makes sense because of the commercial zoning.
So basically, unless you are an insider you don't get to read anything? I understand that lines need to be drawn, but the original "drawing" has changed eliminating properties previously included, now excised from the original drawing. Why? Why is it so hard to get an honest answer?
 

exnodak

New Member
I am going to ask again: The question is simply this: Where the original boundary map, that was originally presented by the municipality committee, had all properties included west of Little Cove Point Rd to Cove Point Rd to HG Trueman Rd, the new boundary map now excludes many properties that were originally included. The properties that have been excluded are known to not have water service provided by the CRWC. Why was this change made? Very simple question. Why is it so hard to get an honest straightforward answer from you people?

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The boundaries of Calvert Shores were decided before September of 2014 and were submitted to the Board of Elections and the Attorney General for approval of the construction of the petition at that time. The map attached to the petition has remained exactly the same since that time. It is the only map that was ever published as the proposed boundaries for the petition. So, there has been no "change".

It is possible and even probable that during the very early discussion phase, before I was asked to join the committee, that the area you speak of was contemplated. But it has not been included at any time that I've been involved.

I did participate in some of the discussions about including and excluding certain areas as I was asked to before I became involved in the petition drive. The boundary that resulted was a consensus of about 15 community members that all stepped forward. There were probably 15 different opinions considered during the process. It ended up with nobody getting exactly what they thought was right and everybody giving on some point. Deb Thomas actively asked for and even sent requests for opinions to the neighboring HOA's that we could find that had some kind of governing body or representative. We got little or no response other than a couple of "We'll sit back and see how it goes" comments.

We begged for people to be involved both in and near CRE. There were letters to the editor. Phone calls to community leaders NOT in CRE. We've met with the Lusby Business Association and asked them to participate. Absolutely NOBODY can complain that they weren't given the opportunity to have a say in the end results. There is still at least one public hearing and an election coming up. If, when the time comes you still feel this way, simply vote against it.

As we were and are an Ad Hoc committee, there were no "official minutes" taken. We were not an official committee until we were recognized by the County and then we still aren't considered a public agency for this process.

If you don't like it, don't blame the organizing committee, blame the legislature of 1954. They are the ones that came up with the cokamaymee process that requires that the town be named, the boundaries established, and the charter completed before you can even take it to the public for hearing. The process is obviously deliberately designed to frustrate all but the most absolutely determined from succeeding. And that's why nobody's done it for over 30 years. But we are doing it.

The named committee on the petition were the core of the group at the time and date of the petition notice about October 1 of 2014. Deborah Thomas was the original charter chair. She succumbed to cancer last year. I joined the party in November '14 but wasn't a recognized member of the group until sometime in early Summer/late spring '15. I was originally consulted as I was one of the petitioners from 13 years ago and it was thought I could help keep them from repeating mistakes...like taking on too much territory, or more than necessary if it might create hostility on the boundaries.

It is too late for any neighborhood to get in on original incorporation. They would have to have been added before the petition was written and filed. But, annexation is not that difficult a process if they affirmatively wish to be annexed.
 
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seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
The minutes of the organizing committee might not necessarily be considered public information yet under the Open Meetings law, which really only covers elected and appointed governmental bodies.

HOAs sort of come under that, but with laws covering those organizations not governmental bodies.

I'll admit that I'm not positive on how this would be covered.

As far as why the lines were drawn where they were, well, they have to be drawn somewhere. Including the Lusby Town Center makes sense because of the commercial zoning.

The committee kept minutes of the formal meetings. They also kept financial records as well. The majority of the meetings, however, were informational meetings. These meetings allowed discussion based on research rather than speculation. One Commissioner attended a meeting and asked a few questions. The answers to his questions would have made excellent sound bites.

As for the boundaries... with 4400 homes in the community.. it's fair to say that the Lusby Town Center is largely supported by CRE. It's understandable that the land should be included.

:coffee:
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
If I may ...So basically, unless you are an insider you don't get to read anything? I understand that lines need to be drawn, but the original "drawing" has changed eliminating properties previously included, now excised from the original drawing. Why? Why is it so hard to get an honest answer?

Some might remember heated discussions on this site about the water company. Since then the CRWC has proven that they can provide dependable safe drinking water. That's good for the municipal discussion. The ability to provide proven Public Services going in is a huge game changer. CRE Roads and CRWC are up to the task.

Another sign of the maturity of the question is the need to care for groundwater. Our groundwater has a big impact on the health of the bay. By the time the municipality would have to face public sewer discussions, the municipality will be in a better position to garner any grant funding available to lower the cost to the municipality. That would save everyone some money down the line.

:coffee:
 

LightRoasted

If I may ...
If I may ...
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The boundaries of Calvert Shores were decided before September of 2014 and were submitted to the Board of Elections and the Attorney General for approval of the construction of the petition at that time. The map attached to the petition has remained exactly the same since that time. It is the only map that was ever published as the proposed boundaries for the petition. So, there has been no "change".

It is possible and even probable that during the very early discussion phase, before I was asked to join the committee, that the area you speak of was contemplated. But it has not been included at any time that I've been involved.

I did participate in some of the discussions about including and excluding certain areas as I was asked to before I became involved in the petition drive. The boundary that resulted was a consensus of about 15 community members that all stepped forward. There were probably 15 different opinions considered during the process. It ended up with nobody getting exactly what they thought was right and everybody giving on some point. Deb Thomas actively asked for and even sent requests for opinions to the neighboring HOA's that we could find that had some kind of governing body or representative. We got little or no response other than a couple of "We'll sit back and see how it goes" comments.

We begged for people to be involved both in and near CRE. There were letters to the editor. Phone calls to community leaders NOT in CRE. We've met with the Lusby Business Association and asked them to participate. Absolutely NOBODY can complain that they weren't given the opportunity to have a say in the end results. There is still at least one public hearing and an election coming up. If, when the time comes you still feel this way, simply vote against it.

As we were and are an Ad Hoc committee, there were no "official minutes" taken. We were not an official committee until we were recognized by the County and then we still aren't considered a public agency for this process.

If you don't like it, don't blame the organizing committee, blame the legislature of 1954. They are the ones that came up with the cokamaymee process that requires that the town be named, the boundaries established, and the charter completed before you can even take it to the public for hearing. The process is obviously deliberately designed to frustrate all but the most absolutely determined from succeeding. And that's why nobody's done it for over 30 years. But we are doing it.

The named committee on the petition were the core of the group at the time and date of the petition notice about October 1 of 2014. Deborah Thomas was the original charter chair. She succumbed to cancer last year. I joined the party in November '14 but wasn't a recognized member of the group until sometime in early Summer/late spring '15. I was originally consulted as I was one of the petitioners from 13 years ago and it was thought I could help keep them from repeating mistakes...like taking on too much territory, or more than necessary if it might create hostility on the boundaries.

It is too late for any neighborhood to get in on original incorporation. They would have to have been added before the petition was written and filed. But, annexation is not that difficult a process if they affirmatively wish to be annexed.
Thank you. I can accept this thorough explanation. Though I still disagree with the necessity for creating a new governmental, political sub-division, body.
 

NorthBeachPerso

Honorary SMIB
If I may ...So basically, unless you are an insider you don't get to read anything? I understand that lines need to be drawn, but the original "drawing" has changed eliminating properties previously included, now excised from the original drawing. Why? Why is it so hard to get an honest answer?


When you talk about "original boundaries" are you referencing the stillborn attempt to incorporate a number of years ago? I believe that those boundaries were much larger than those now contemplated.

Have you bothered to just ask one of the steering committee members to see any minutes? That might be what many would consider a "reasonable" idea.

As I've said more than once, I don't have a dog in the fight. No one from CRC has contacted me for my input. I've also said that a 3rd municipality in the County will, in my opinion, negatively impact the existing Towns.
 

officeguy

Well-Known Member
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The boundaries of Calvert Shores were decided before September of 2014 and were submitted to the Board of Elections and the Attorney General for approval of the construction of the petition at that time. The map attached to the petition has remained exactly the same since that time. It is the only map that was ever published as the proposed boundaries for the petition. So, there has been no "change".

Early press articles about the petition effort mention two maps that were circulated. One that included some extra neighborhoods, one that didn't. The explanation at the time was that based on lessons learned from the prior petition effort, the committee decided to define the territory more narrowly and went with the CRE+Town-Center map for that reason.

From the timeline you give us, this happened before you became a formal part of the committee. You must have some mighty mind control rays if you managed to change the course of the effort before you even became part of it.
 

LightRoasted

If I may ...
If I may ...
Early press articles about the petition effort mention two maps that were circulated. One that included some extra neighborhoods, one that didn't. The explanation at the time was that based on lessons learned from the prior petition effort, the committee decided to define the territory more narrowly and went with the CRE+Town-Center map for that reason.
Thank you as well. The most concise, plausible and understandable explanation thus far. If this had been explained from the beginning, it would have eliminated much speculation.

When you talk about "original boundaries" are you referencing the stillborn attempt to incorporate a number of years ago? I believe that those boundaries were much larger than those now contemplated. As I've said more than once, I don't have a dog in the fight. No one from CRC has contacted me for my input. I've also said that a 3rd municipality in the County will, in my opinion, negatively impact the existing Towns.
That is entirely possible. That original boundaries map is still visible in my head. I also agree about a 3rd municipality having a negative impact to Chesapeake and North Beach, a three way completion for money from shrinking available dollars will be fierce. Of course, one huge difference, the beaches are not only tourist destinations with a huge fishing industry, a water park, etc, but also have important cultural and American history and has been a vacation destination for what, about a hundred years now? Something Lusby and CRE do not have.
 

NorthBeachPerso

Honorary SMIB
................................

That is entirely possible. That original boundaries map is still visible in my head. I also agree about a 3rd municipality having a negative impact to Chesapeake and North Beach, a three way completion for money from shrinking available dollars will be fierce. Of course, one huge difference, the beaches are not only tourist destinations with a huge fishing industry, a water park, etc, but also have important cultural and American history and has been a vacation destination for what, about a hundred years now? Something Lusby and CRE do not have.


But here's the thing, the potential Chesapeake Shores has the amenities there to do the same thing, become a destination. It will take years (the Beaches have spent most of the last 30 years doing it), but the potential is there.

We keep track of the Zip Codes of visitors using the beach (I don't know if Chesapeake Beach does at either the Water Park or its beach) and we get a fair number of people from Charles, St. Mary's and VA across the Nice Bridge. They could be snagged because it's closer.

As I said I don't have a dog in the fight, and notwithstanding my belief that a municipality will be a negative for the Beaches (mostly at the County level, and that depends on the Commissioners, not so much at the State level), I still think that for CRE it's the best thing for you guys down there. As I said a couple times, the old model just doesn't work any longer.
 

LightRoasted

If I may ...
IF I may ...
But here's the thing, the potential Chesapeake Shores has the amenities there to do the same thing, become a destination. It will take years (the Beaches have spent most of the last 30 years doing it), but the potential is there.
If .... and that's a big IF, if the municipality does come to fruition the property owners (POACRE) would be fools to dissolve and give up what they have to an uncaring municipality just to become a destination. Pretty sure that if it's one thing that the residents do not want is to have thousands of non-residents traipsing through their community everyday to amenities given over to, and controlled by, a government. At present it's still our community, our beaches, our lake etc. It's what made CRC and now makes CRE, CRE.
 

exnodak

New Member
IF I may ...If .... and that's a big IF, if the municipality does come to fruition the property owners (POACRE) would be fools to dissolve and give up what they have to an uncaring municipality just to become a destination. Pretty sure that if it's one thing that the residents do not want is to have thousands of non-residents traipsing through their community everyday to amenities given over to, and controlled by, a government. At present it's still our community, our beaches, our lake etc. It's what made CRC and now makes CRE, CRE.

And that is EXACTLY the reason that POACRE will remain intact and be the titled owner of the amenities and continue to collect the M&O fees dedicated to the private use of those amenities. The ONLY way that could change would be if the property owners should vote to transfer them to the municipality. The existence of Calvert Shores poses no threat to the amenities nor does it do anything to alter the ownership arrangement or use. It is expected that POACRE will transfer the roads....period. That will relieve the HOA of its biggest burden and give it a chance to focus on the management of the amenities which have always taken a back seat to roads and caused numerous questionable fund balance transfers from M&O to Roads funds over the years. The roads fees and the STD would go away and be replaced by a smaller tax which may be a part of the County Property Tax offset supplemented by SHUR and other existing revenue potentials.

All that being said, if POACRE (the collective of property owners) wanted to exploit some of its wealth of real estate to construct a tourist destination and create taxable institutions, that is a very attractive thought from the perspective of the community treasury. But the Town wouldn't be the vehicle, or the proprietor, or the banker, of that enterprise. It would be entirely a POACRE endeavor.
 

LightRoasted

If I may ...
If I may ...

Exnodak, as a kinda off topic question, about how much would to cost to have the water tower at the PBP cleaned and or re-painted? It is getting that funky buildup of green algae and on top of that the paint and PWP logo are fading. Being somewhat in a state of decay itself. And, is it actually being used? If so, what properties does it service? I ask because the CRWC tower always seems to look good, clean, and seem freshly painted.
 
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exnodak

New Member
If I may ...

Exnodak, as a kinda off topic question, about how much would to cost to have the water tower at the PBP cleaned and or re-painted? It is getting that funky buildup of green algae and on top of that the paint and PWP logo are fading. Being somewhat in a state of decay itself. And, is it actually being used? If so, what properties does it service? I ask because the CRWC tower always seems to look good, clean, and seem freshly painted.

It could use a pressure wash and a clear coat. I don't think it needs a full paint job yet. It should be good for about twenty years. A pressure wash and clear coat could run as high as $50K. A full strip down prime and paint X2 coats would run about $100K or more on that tank.

It is in service, and the water is being pumped up to it from the large round tank above Solomons.
 
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