Drugs claim 2 more lives...

[officeguy]

We agree on all of that.


It is just naive to think that those two wouldn't have died alone in a tent if drugs were legal. Every year we have hobos who drink themselves to death somewhere in the woods.

 

[Larry Gude]

No, I dig the discussion. If you don't want to discuss, that is certainly your prerogative. I will still question and discuss, and address statements that I believe are false or don't understand.

I, too, dig the discussion. That said, neither you nor I have made a new point to one another on the issue in, oh, coming up on 20 years. Thus, we disagree, know why, in depth and it's not fun nor informative or entertaining anymore on this subject.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

I don't know how to make it any clearer; I GET that. We have an ENORMOUS alcohol abuse problem in the US. It costs untold billions of dollars for all sorts of negative things. What we DON'T have is the violence of crime chasing the profits that can ONLY come from prohibition and we don't have the corruption that only comes from prohibition and we don't have the cynicism and loss of respect for the laws and values of an, ostensibly, FREE nation and we also don't have the responsibility that comes from learning to make choices.

So, do we want the abuse problems AND the violence and corruption and all the EXTRA ills that come from, ONLY come from prohibition or do we want just the abuse problems? It's like you folks have not the first clue about what happened the last time we did this. :shrug:

The thing is that the bad guys will just move onto something else to make money, the mob did not cease to exist after prohibition ended, they moved on to other things. Maybe the current drug dealers will up their game and get into human trafficking instead and there will be a huge increase in kidnappings and missing persons. The problem is you thing it will make the bad guys be good, the problems will just be associated with other things.

 

[Larry Gude]

We agree on all of that.


It is just naive to think that those two wouldn't have died alone in a tent if drugs were legal. Every year we have hobos who drink themselves to death somewhere in the woods.

They died of, obviously, illegal, unregulated product. When was the last time someone died of bathtub gin or turpentine because they couldn't get legal hooch? For ####s sake, you can get moonshine in the stores now. Granted, it's tame-shine but the point is if you can get it, it is legal, regulated, tested and you don't freaking die in a tent from bad booze. You may well die of alcohol related illness but probably not in a destitute tent...as did occur, a lot, during prohibition.

 

[Larry Gude]

The thing is that the bad guys will just move onto something else to make money, the mob did not cease to exist after prohibition ended, they moved on to other things. Maybe the current drug dealers will up their game and get into human trafficking instead and there will be a huge increase in kidnappings and missing persons. The problem is you thing it will make the bad guys be good, the problems will just be associated with other things.

Crap argument. Total crap. WTF they gonna do, sell large sodas in Philly? And how many people are likely to die over that? Zero? Dopers have gotten so heavy into smack BECAUSE the profit fell out of weed.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

They died of, obviously, illegal, unregulated product. When was the last time someone died of bathtub gin or turpentine because they couldn't get legal hooch? For ####s sake, you can get moonshine in the stores now. Granted, it's tame-shine but the point is if you can get it, it is legal, regulated, tested and you don't freaking die in a tent from bad booze. You may well die of alcohol related illness but probably not in a destitute tent...as did occur, a lot, during prohibition.

Very many of those deaths were cause by the government poisoning the supply, http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.html

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Crap argument. Total crap. WTF they gonna do, sell large sodas in Philly? And how many people are likely to die over that? Zero? Dopers have gotten so heavy into smack BECAUSE the profit fell out of weed.

That is my point, they will find something else, people may not die from that but the violence and corruption etc don't go away.

The reason for it is not because of a thing, the reason for it is because of people.

 

[vraiblonde]

And yet alcohol still causes a ton of problems in our society.

If it were up to me, those "problems" would cease right quick. But I'm all mean and zero tolerance like that.

I can't believe it doesn't occur to the legalization crowd that that's exactly what our politicians and master of the universe want - for us to be sedated and compliant. One one hand, they're all fight the power government is evil rah rah rah; then they turn around and want even more people to have brain waste, courtesy of the government.



Straight, there's a (large) part of me that doesn't care. Not only legalize, baybee, but dole out free heroin and other lethal substances - let the problem take care of itself. But I know people who have loved ones addicted to crack and heroin, and it's not a pretty picture. People who think hard drugs like that should be legal and readily available have never seen anyone actually use them or feening hard when when they can't get them. This is not pot smoking we're talking about. Being jacked up on crack or heroin is not even remotely close to being high on pot. It's scary and ugly, and what's worse is that they can't help themselves because they're addicted. I don't think we, as a society, should be facilitating that.

It also surprises me that the anti-government folks haven't realized that the reason we can't "win" the "war on drugs" is because...the powers that be don't want to. They want our populace drugged and sedated, and they want that bribe money. If they don't have drug ghettos filled with abuse and poverty, what are they going to rail against and promise to "fight" come election time?

 

[vraiblonde]

That is my point, they will find something else, people may not die from that but the violence and corruption etc don't go away.

The reason for it is not because of a thing, the reason for it is because of people.

Exactly. There will always be something for criminals and bad guys to make a buck off of. It's not like we legalize drugs, so now all the dealers are going to go to college and become CPAs. They will find another criminal enterprise.

 

[vraiblonde]

I, too, dig the discussion. That said, neither you nor I have made a new point to one another on the issue in, oh, coming up on 20 years. Thus, we disagree, know why, in depth and it's not fun nor informative or entertaining anymore on this subject.

Let me suggest that it becomes non-entertaining for you when you are asked a question that you cannot answer. You have made many proclamations on this subject, but to my knowledge you have not one time answered the rebuttal questions that are put to you.

So here's a simple one:

What will all those dealers and hoppers do for money once drugs are legal? What will the cartels do for money?

 

[vraiblonde]

They died of, obviously, illegal, unregulated product.

People drink themselves to death on liquor store booze all the time. Do you still have my Mom's cellphone number? Call her and ask her if you don't believe me.

 

[vraiblonde]

Crap argument. Total crap. WTF they gonna do, sell large sodas in Philly?

Well, maybe they will kidnap little children and sell them as sex slaves. Then, when we legalize that, they will move on to something else that we can decide to legalize because we're too lazy and corrupt to enforce the law and protect our society.

Good grief, you even said it yourself:

Dopers have gotten so heavy into smack BECAUSE the profit fell out of weed.

So when the profit falls out of heroin, then what will they do?

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Well, maybe they will kidnap little children and sell them as sex slaves. Then, when we legalize that, they will move on to something else that we can decide to legalize because we're too lazy and corrupt to enforce the law and protect our society.

Good grief, you even said it yourself:



So when the profit falls out of heroin, then what will they do?

OxyContin is legal and we have a worse epidemic with it than we ever had with heroin. My coworkers daughter switched to heroin because it was cheaper, girl has been to rehab 5-6 times, meets a new boyfriend in rehab and is strung out in a few days.

How does Oxycontin being legal, controlled, high quality keep it from being such a problem?

 

[GURPS]

..... they need to follow each person up with solid programs to help folks get off the drugs.

people are not getting off drugs until THEY are ready - ie have hit bottom or are dead

 

[BOP]

This MUST be FAKE news!

Trump just signed an Executive Order that:


How can it be that anyone is dying from drugs? Trump signed and EO!?!? These folks must have known Susan Rice or George Soros! Or...it was the fault of the Obama admin.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...tive-order-establishing-presidents-commission

Seriously...how does a problem get fixed if no one does anything about it? The drug companies ship a billion opiod pills to WV...overdose deaths skyrocket...a pharmacy or two gets busted...the drug companies pocket the profits and ship a billion pills to another state.

These were two homeless people...no one gives a sh!t about them either. The majority of people on here most likely look at this as a reduction in future govt spending on the poor.

Lay off that crack pipe, TJ.

 

[BOP]

Spoken like a true Democrat. Legal or illegal - They are addicted. When police catch the drug addicts, they need to follow each person up with solid programs to help folks get off the drugs. And then it needs to be followed up over a long term to ensure they don't return to it. Too many drug addicts and not enough good programs. - Unfortunately, quite a few do return to drugs even when they had help. Most Detention Center facilities have programs to help people get off drugs if they want to. Many do not take advantage of it. Thus, the cycle continues until either they are dead or they kill someone else that results in a long sentence for them.

So which brand of totalitarian are you?

 

[vraiblonde]

So which brand of totalitarian are you?

Not sure about 3Cat, but I'm the brand of totalitarian who is sick and tired of paying for and suffering the consequences of people's poor choices in life. If you want to kill yourself with drugs, be my guest. It's when you involve me in any way that it becomes problematic.

 

[black dog]

Not sure about 3Cat, but I'm the brand of totalitarian who is sick and tired of paying for and suffering the consequences of people's poor choices in life. If you want to kill yourself with drugs, be my guest. It's when you involve me in any way that it becomes problematic.

Yep.. let it be the self cleaning oven it used to be. Folks need to stop intervening.

 

[officeguy]

They died of, obviously, illegal, unregulated product. When was the last time someone died of bathtub gin or turpentine because they couldn't get legal hooch?

You assume that the problem with dopers is the quality of the supply, not the fact that they are dopers. The number of accidental overdoses would probably go down somewhat if we made pharmaceutical grade fentanyl or heroin freely available, they would still be wasting away their lives. Why do we know that ? Because that's what drunks do. Drunks kill themselves with store bought alcohol all the time. Also, that is what prescription drug addicts already do. They are looking for the next high, if the dose they used yesterday didn't do it, they'll use more.
It is naive to think that it is only a problem of prohibition.

 

[officeguy]

Yep.. let it be the self cleaning oven it used to be. Folks need to stop intervening.

Put a lifetime limit of two doses on narcan.