Folks, There Could Still Be A Draft!

[Penn]

Hell, I find it laughable that even though it's an all volunteer force, we still have a number of these people fleeing to Canada, because they don't want to go fight in a war.

And, how about Canada harboring these pukes? Ain't that just grand.

 

[oldman]

Not me, I think it would hurt more then help the military to force people to serve. Look at all the whinning going on from some of the reservists that have been called up. Makes you wonder why they signed on the dotted line in the first place. Imagine what it would be like if all youngsters had to serve.

Ken, not disagreeing with you, but I might propose looking at the age of young people being murdered in our area, especially DC or Baltimore. These, IMO, are kids with no direction. Perhaps if they were mandated to go into the military they might get their eyes opened. Someone to tell them when to get up, when to sh!t, when to wash their clothes and when to go to bed - I just believe it wouldn't be bad for them to get experience in the real world. As far as the reservists, and I've been away from the military for years now, but in my day they didn't get the same type of training as those of us that were active. We had guys that couldn't take it but the vast majority of them were found out in boot camp and sent home. I'm not saying I'm right, but felt it worth putting in my 2 cents.

 

[Nickel]

I don't understand how anyone can believe this garbage. My brother is joining the air force, and can't leave for boot camp for 6 months at the earliest b/c they've met their quota for next year already. Common sense would tell you that a military as large as ours doesn't need a draft.

 

[Ken King]

Hell, I find it laughable that even though it's an all volunteer force, we still have a number of these people fleeing to Canada, because they don't want to go fight in a war.

And, how about Canada harboring these pukes? Ain't that just grand.

Let them go, maybe they can come back one day and become President like someone we know (that is if we get another spineless President that pardons them).

 

[Ken King]

Ken, not disagreeing with you, but I might propose looking at the age of young people being murdered in our area, especially DC or Baltimore. These, IMO, are kids with no direction. Perhaps if they were mandated to go into the military they might get their eyes opened. Someone to tell them when to get up, when to sh!t, when to wash their clothes and when to go to bed - I just believe it wouldn't be bad for them to get experience in the real world. As far as the reservists, and I've been away from the military for years now, but in my day they didn't get the same type of training as those of us that were active. We had guys that couldn't take it but the vast majority of them were found out in boot camp and sent home. I'm not saying I'm right, but felt it worth putting in my 2 cents.

It is okay to have differing opinions; I have no problem with that. Now, do we want these undirected heathens bringing all of their crap into our military and handing them weapons when they are just as likely to spray their comrades as the enemy? I think not. Pete brushed on it some and the problems that those that don’t want to be there would generate wouldn’t be something that I think we should force on the military.

The volunteer force seems to be working fine and until such time as we need a significant increase in quantity of personnel why not let it continue as is? If we want to redirect these kids maybe something like the Peace Corps is what they need or, even better, making their parents take responsibility and fix the problem that their lack of supervision has helped cause.

 

[Penn]

Ken, not disagreeing with you, but I might propose looking at the age of young people being murdered in our area, especially DC or Baltimore. These, IMO, are kids with no direction. Perhaps if they were mandated to go into the military they might get their eyes opened. Someone to tell them when to get up, when to sh!t, when to wash their clothes and when to go to bed - I just believe it wouldn't be bad for them to get experience in the real world.

We had guys that couldn't take it but the vast majority of them were found out in boot camp and sent home. I'm not saying I'm right, but felt it worth putting in my 2 cents.

Good thoughts, oldman. The inner city kids might benefit from some sort of military duty, although there are those that say: "Look, they're killing each other off anyway with the streetgangs and such, so let them alone."

But, I have to agree, it would give them a sense of direction. Given the life they're in, it's a self-perpetuating thing, and doing military time might break the cycle of the lives they lead.

 

[oldman]

It is okay to have differing opinions; I have no problem with that. Now, do we want these undirected heathens bringing all of their crap into our military and handing them weapons when they are just as likely to spray their comrades as the enemy? I think not. Pete brushed on it some and the problems that those that don’t want to be there would generate wouldn’t be something that I think we should force on the military.

The volunteer force seems to be working fine and until such time as we need a significant increase in quantity of personnel why not let it continue as is? If we want to redirect these kids maybe something like the Peace Corps is what they need or, even better, making their parents take responsibility and fix the problem that their lack of supervision has helped cause.

I really am not for a draft in this day and age, but I was just trying to point out that if we did perhaps we could turn around some these undirected heathens with some firm oversight. Sort of like putting their back to the wall. If they were forced to get involved with others their own age from all over the states they might look at life a little differently and accept it. I really don't see how if you don't want them to be supervised by the military how you'd suggest they might enroll for something like the Peace Corp. I do totally agree with you that parenting is a major problem in this day and age though. I cannot understand why so many are young people are out on the streets between 1am and 5am - but that's somewhat off the subject.

 

[Ken King]

I really am not for a draft in this day and age, but I was just trying to point out that if we did perhaps we could turn around some these undirected heathens with some firm oversight. Sort of like putting their back to the wall. If they were forced to get involved with others their own age from all over the states they might look at life a little differently and accept it. I really don't see how if you don't want them to be supervised by the military how you'd suggest they might enroll for something like the Peace Corp. I do totally agree with you that parenting is a major problem in this day and age though. I cannot understand why so many are young people are out on the streets between 1am and 5am - but that's somewhat off the subject.

Personally, I don’t think anyone should be forced to do anything unless as punishment for a crime. The suggestion of the Peace Corps versus the military was that one is weaponless and the other is not. The same lessons can be learned just as readily in an atmosphere of helping and hard work as they can in the regimented life of the military.

Bottom line is I don’t think that forced service in anything will do much to change the ingrained attitudes of those people that have been years without parental guidance. The lack of parental guidance is why so many kids are out on the street when they should be home and in bed.

 

[oldman]

Personally, I don’t think anyone should be forced to do anything unless as punishment for a crime. The suggestion of the Peace Corps versus the military was that one is weaponless and the other is not. The same lessons can be learned just as readily in an atmosphere of helping and hard work as they can in the regimented life of the military.

Bottom line is I don’t think that forced service in anything will do much to change the ingrained attitudes of those people that have been years without parental guidance. The lack of parental guidance is why so many kids are out on the street when they should be home and in bed.

Ken, I'm only suggesting a way for us to get our kids on the right track, as you are doing. We just have slightly different views on how to do it. Having, or not having a weapon, really doesn't have much to do with it because in military training one doesn't just get to carry an active weapon, they are trained how to handle and use it properly under very high supervision. I get the distinct impression you have not been in the military, and I have no problem with that - honestly. I do know it gave ME direction in my life and ended up being my life, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I'm not disagreeing with you, just offering an alternative view.

 

[Pete]

I really am not for a draft in this day and age, but I was just trying to point out that if we did perhaps we could turn around some these undirected heathens with some firm oversight. Sort of like putting their back to the wall. If they were forced to get involved with others their own age from all over the states they might look at life a little differently and accept it. I really don't see how if you don't want them to be supervised by the military how you'd suggest they might enroll for something like the Peace Corp. I do totally agree with you that parenting is a major problem in this day and age though. I cannot understand why so many are young people are out on the streets between 1am and 5am - but that's somewhat off the subject.

oldman,

It is like I told many people when I was still in. "I cannot fix in 2 years what pizz poor parenting took 18 years to create."

 

[oldman]

oldman,

It is like I told many people when I was still in. "I cannot fix in 2 years what pizz poor parenting took 18 years to create."

Pete, I understand what you're saying but just imagine a kid out of the hood coming to boot camp. He's probably going to have problems adjusting. Were you ever the recipient of a blanket party? I just believe being exposed to an alternative lifestyle "can" change a young man. If he can't make it fine, send him back home but at least give him the opportunity to turn into whatever he can be. What he's learned upon reaching the age of 18 or so is one thing, but people can also learn so much more from being placed in an entirely different environment (JMO).

 

[Pete]

Pete, I understand what you're saying but just imagine a kid out of the hood coming to boot camp. He's probably going to have problems adjusting. Were you ever the recipient of a blanket party? I just believe being exposed to an alternative lifestyle "can" change a young man. If he can't make it fine, send him back home but at least give him the opportunity to turn into whatever he can be. What he's learned upon reaching the age of 18 or so is one thing, but people can also learn so much more from being placed in an entirely different environment (JMO).

I think you are out of touch with the reality that is bootcamp now. It is not the tough break them down build them back experience it once was. Blanket party? HA, now they have time out cards that they can use when feeling too stressed. You are not allowed to yell or otherwise offend their sensitivities. I was getting people fresh form boot camp and I was astounded they made it through.

 

[Penn]

Ken, I'm only suggesting a way for us to get our kids on the right track, as you are doing. We just have slightly different views on how to do it. Having, or not having a weapon, really doesn't have much to do with it because in military training one doesn't just get to carry an active weapon, they are trained how to handle and use it properly under very high supervision.

I get the distinct impression you have not been in the military, and I have no problem with that - honestly.

Ken's either gone to bed,(he's getting on in his years you know, no offense), however, Ken was in the military. He and I have passed a few messages between us, about what we both did while in the service and where.

Remarkably, we missed each other, even though we performed just about the same kind of duty.

I'll let him speak for himself when he gets back on.

 

[Ken King]

Ken, I'm only suggesting a way for us to get our kids on the right track, as you are doing. We just have slightly different views on how to do it. Having, or not having a weapon, really doesn't have much to do with it because in military training one doesn't just get to carry an active weapon, they are trained how to handle and use it properly under very high supervision. I get the distinct impression you have not been in the military, and I have no problem with that - honestly. I do know it gave ME direction in my life and ended up being my life, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I'm not disagreeing with you, just offering an alternative view.

Well your impression would be inaccurate as I spent a little over 12 years on active duty and decided to get out when given orders for my third unaccompanied tour. I have always known that military life wasn’t for everyone and, unless we absolutely need it, it should remain that way. During the time I served I came across many that were there because they had been given a choice by the court to serve or do time (popular back in the 70s and 80s, don’t know if it is still done or not). For the most part these guys were slackers and trouble makers that disrupted the unit and consumed a great deal of time of the unit officers and NCOs dealing with their shenanigans and what could be best termed as baby-sitting. There were also many that had been drafted and a lot of them only thought about how quick they could expedite their departure not how they could best serve during their remaining time.

While not all that serve carry a weapon regularly they do train with one at basic and I have been in units where everyone did have an issued weapon at the ready. In a forced service environment I would suspect that those not volunteering would go to mostly infantry type positions and weapons are the biggest part of their life.

With that in mind I suspect that most of these people would be in limited skill positions because I don’t see the services sending a two-yearer to electronics or aircraft maintenance schools that last close to a year or longer. It wouldn’t be a good use of training funds to do so without getting an extended commitment in return.

I do not deny that the military life could possibly turn some of these kids around and really be good for them, but without them wanting that change I don’t see it as being a good idea. Like they say you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

 

[Ken King]

Ken's either gone to bed,(he's getting on in his years you know, no offense), however, Ken was in the military. He and I have passed a few messages between us, about what we both did while in the service and where.

Remarkably, we missed each other, even though we performed just about the same kind of duty.

I'll let him speak for himself when he gets back on.

Nope, not bedtime yet like you and the rest of the senior citizens over at the old folks home. Now go eat your strained prunes and make sure you pee before getting into your jammies and tucked in. They won't tolerate too many more of your accidents.

 

[Penn]

I think oyu are out of touch with the reality that is bootcamp now. It is not the tough break them down build them back experience it once was. Blanket party? HA, now they have time out cards that they can use when feeling too stressed. You are not allowed to yell or otherwise offend their sensitivities. I was getting people fresh form boot camp and I was astounded they made it through.

Funny how this thread has digressed, but it's still interesting where it's gone.

Pete, you're telling 2 older guys, (one of them's the oldman) the military boot camps no longer have the responsibility/authority to toss a kid out of the military, if the instructors/officers feel he/she can't hack it?

They've come a long way, if that's the way it is now. We used to get threatened with that back when I was in boot camp in San Antonio, and I thought: How embarassing that would be; first of all, I'd have had to revert back to the Army who had drafted me, and they wouldn't have cared one whit.
I wasn't going to give them that chance, so I learned the best way was to shut up, and follow their lead. Once you figured that out, it wasn't so bad.

Hell, all they were trying to do was make you understand that following the orders of those above you was paramount.

 

[Ken King]

Funny how this thread has digressed, but it's still interesting where it's gone.

Pete, you're telling 2 older guys, (one of them's the oldman) the military boot camps no longer have the responsibility/authority to toss a kid out of the military, if the instructors/officers feel he/she can't hack it?

They've come a long way, if that's the way it is now. We used to get threatened with that back when I was in boot camp in San Antonio, and I thought: How embarassing that would be; first of all, I'd have had to revert back to the Army who had drafted me, and they wouldn't have cared one whit.
I wasn't going to give them that chance, so I learned the best way was to shut up, and follow their lead. Once you figured that out, it wasn't so bad.

Hell, all they were trying to do was make you understand that following the orders of those above you was paramount.

Penn, I have heard the same where they cannot "abuse" these new sensitive troops. Some of the “wall to wall” counseling sessions I experienced early on while I was in are no longer acceptable, though they were highly effective.

 

[oldman]

Thanks for the input fellas. Guess I'm been out of boot camp way to long and probably don't know what it's like anymore. In my time we didn't have washing machines, all wash was done in a bucket and on a cement table then hung out to dry. We didn't have TV's and lights were out at 9 at night, because we we're up at 4am. No candy machines. I'm just thinking maybe we should return to that. It helps to make a man of you if nothing else.

 

[Penn]

Penn, I have heard the same where they cannot "abuse" these new sensitive troops. Some of the “wall to wall” counseling sessions I experienced early on while I was in are no longer acceptable, though they were highly effective.

Tsk(clicking tongue)tsk, what these kids are missing then.

My drill instructor was a guy by the name of Jo-jo Ferante, out of the Bronx, I think, and he was 2 inches shorter than I was.(You know how tall I am) But he would stand 1.5 inches from your nose and call you every name you'd ever heard your uncle call to the hogs, and threaten your azz with bodily harm if you didn't get it together.
It was already in the books that they could no longer unleash physical violence on you, but who believes everything they tell you? We didn't have the internet just yet, so these guys were the next thing to gods.

Funny how his name is still something I can recall..............

 

[Ken King]

Tsk(clicking tongue)tsk, what these kids are missing then.

My drill instructor was a guy by the name of Jo-jo Ferante, out of the Bronx, I think, and he was 2 inches shorter than I was.(You know how tall I am) But he would stand 1.5 inches from your nose and call you every name you'd ever heard your uncle call to the hogs, and threaten your azz with bodily harm if you didn't get it together.
It was already in the books that they could no longer unleash physical violence on you, but who believes everything they tell you? We didn't have the internet just yet, so these guys were the next thing to gods.

Funny how his name is still something I can recall..............

Times have certainly changed, that's for sure.

I went in after you and I think even then “bodily harm” meant you left in an ambulance because I certainly remember getting an attitude adjustment of a physical nature on more than one occasion and no one batted an eye. Then again I never thought of complaining about it higher up the chain either. It might not have been allowed but it was definitely employed.