black dog
Free America
Holy Sh!t, are you getting it from Baltimore or Virginia?
Now is 197 rubals equivalent to a pond?
Ford sees higher metal costs
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Holy Sh!t, are you getting it from Baltimore or Virginia?
Now is 197 rubals equivalent to a pond?
black dog
Free America
Yep, after 911, 10' x 24' sheets of 1/2" AR 500 plate went from 1,800 to over 5 grand for a year or so.
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
When imported products are set at artificially low prices, when foreign producer costs are nowhere near the level of US based producer costs, flood the US market that in the long run force companies to lower their prices to compete and then to mothball their businesses when they can't, tariffs are the way to level the field. You may not like the higher prices associated with tariffs, but the money going to in-country producers will keep jobs and the money here.
When imported products are set at artificially low prices, when foreign producer costs are nowhere near the level of US based producer costs, flood the US market that in the long run force companies to lower their prices to compete and then to mothball their businesses when they can't, tariffs are the way to level the field. You may not like the higher prices associated with tariffs, but the money going to in-country producers will keep jobs and the money here.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
You just described what we like to call "market" and you can't have a free market with tariffs. You want people to pay more for a perceived problem.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. But, the OP was about the rise in cost.
It stated (without evidence) that the rise in cost is solely due to tariffs.
Now, you would certainly agree that what has not worked for decades in fixing our trade imbalance with nations that actively "cheat" to hurt us is probably not a way to keep going, right? And, so, trying something more aggressive to force other nations that "cheat" to change their ways is probably in order?
I, personally, was well against the majority on the left when Obama said, "hey, let's try something new with Cuba since the last several decades didn't work." I agreed with Obama on that one. Time will tell if he was right, and I was right to concur.
Similarly, time will tell if the tariffs will impact other nations' trade policies to become more fair. In the mean time, this is a rising cost of materials due to a market change - albeit this one was forced.
We know that drastically increasing regulation to the point of absurdity was intended to force the entire coal industry out of existence. That was an internal attack on Americans, by Americans, against American industry and citizens. This tariff issue is an attack on other nations' ability to sell their product to the main consumer of that product. In the short term, it will hurt us and them. In the long term, the plan is that it only hurts them, or, they change their ways.
This_person
Well-Known Member
It's not "market" when the other side subsidizes the foreign industry to artificially lower their costs, and provide huge tariffs of their own against our products to make the market unpalatable for them to purchase our stuff. That isn't close to a free market, and it is what our tariffs are meant to battle.
The side with the money always wins a battle over money.
Cheap Chinese Metals are not a problem ?
China using Slave Labor to manufacture metals under cutting companies that have to pay more for labor is a 'fair market'
Clem72
Well-Known Member
And what if I told you in general I agree with your positions, but not the way you present them. Like I said before, you may or may not be annoying your target, but you are definitely getting to the point where even reasonable people who may agree with you don't find it worth their time to read your replies. Before long I will be skipping over everything you say just like I do little lady.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
The US imposes about 150 duties and tariffs on steel products, but others are subsidizing their markets?
There's a reason these tariffs didn't work a few short years ago when Bush was in office. That's why Obama's tire tariff didn't work. We know this. We can see those impacts well after the tariffs. Some steel production jobs came back, but hundreds of thousands lost in downstream industries. The 1,200 jobs in tire making from Obama's tariff cost people buying tires over $1 billion.
Using the chinese steel example mentioned below, Trump puts a tariff on steel to build some sort of protectionist barrier around the US. Fine, all well and good. Now all those other countries that export steel the the US are like "dude, WTF, we didn't do #### to you". Now, that supposed cheaper chinese steel is still cheaper because everyone else has raised their prices to offset the tariffs. Now, from the production standpoint, the US companies that use steel to make products are paying more for steel. That increase is then passed along to consumers.
So, even if what China was doing was unfair (and everything points to that being the case), nothing Trump has proposed hurts them in any substantial way.
One argument members on this forum has never, ever, had was the reasoning behind these tariffs in the first place. National security.
China accounts for about 3% of all steel imports. We get more from Canada, South Korea, Brazil and Japan, penalizing allies while really not doing much to China. In fact, 10 countries export more steel than China. About 70% of the steel used in the US is produced in the US. So, I'm not sure what "problem" you're talking about. Unless you're simply taking Trump's word for it.
I'm a bit surprised you're worried about what another country does now. You're pretty vocal about the Khashoggi case and asking why we should be worried about what another country does with its citizens. Now you're worried about "slave labor" in China but not SA murdering a journalist for being critical of the government?
is France subsidizing their farmers, is China subsidizing the steel industry .... that is a problem
as far as Saudi dealing with one of its citizens [a Muslim Brotherhood Member and friend of OBL - no]
only in so far as under cutting other economies with cheap labor
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
JHFC! You are a race to the bottom kind guy aren't you? You won't be satisfied until every American US production based business is out of business because they could not compete with slave labor, no regulatory agencies, inferior produced and imported from other counties producers! All to save a few dollars! Damned be the American worker. Damned be the US economy. Chris(effing)0nllyn wants to spend less and save money and could two sh*ts if his neighbor loses his job, house goes into foreclosure, and family homeless, because of it. If my ass needed wiping because I had a massive bowel movement, and you were toilet paper, I wouldn't use you because you are the cheapest and the most lousy toilet paper that wouldn't do it's job properly. Cheap as bastard.
JHFC! You are a race to the bottom kind guy aren't you? You won't be satisfied until every American US production based business is out of business because they could not compete with slave labor, no regulatory agencies, inferior produced and imported from other counties producers! All to save a few dollars! Damned be the American worker. Damned be the US economy. Chris(effing)0nllyn wants to spend less and save money and could two sh*ts if his neighbor loses his job, house goes into foreclosure, and family homeless, because of it. If my ass needed wiping because I had a massive bowel movement, and you were toilet paper, I wouldn't use you because you are the cheapest and the most lousy toilet paper that wouldn't do it's job properly. Cheap as bastard.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
How is it undercutting our economy? We're a service economy that operates in a world economy where we have a trade deficit due to us having the extra money and wanting cheaper products. We win because we spend less on goods. Wal-Mart didn't get as big as it is by selling expensive stuff.
You're damn right I'm cheap. I work hard for my money and spend it how and where I want.
The rest of your post is simply fear mongering with a clear lack of understanding how world/macro economics work with a few sprinkles of being a complete dickhead for good measure.
Look, if you want to have a discussion about it, we can. We don't have to agree but you could try being somewhat of an adult to prove your point. Until then you'll get the respect and replies you deserve.
black dog
Free America
Some industrys are known for creeping up on your costs over a period of years, you just don't pay attention until one day you open up and invoice and go WTF.. And when you have time you shop and find out you were bent over for months and you get a new metal supplier.
And then the old suppliers salesman shows up at your shop wanting to know what he you haven't ordered anything the last two months.
Shipping is like that,. It's a game, you better be paying attention or your gonna get abused.
It's interesting to me that the big boys are crying about increases in steel, I thought they all locked into steel prices by the year or more..
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
I do have a clear understanding how world/macro economics work. You are not the only educated one here. I also understand how gross competition works as well from dirty unfair nation states. The US has been taking it up the stove pipe for far too many years. Our trade imbalance hurting us, but enabling our competitors and unfair nation states, for far too many decades. I understand better than you it appears. After the initial shock of these tariffs, things will smooth out for the better for American workers and American businesses. You on the other hand buttercup, will just have to suck it up to spending a little bit more, or, just go without. It also appears, that you have no loyalty to this Nation or your fellow American. Money, or the savings of it, blinds you.
I do have a clear understanding how world/macro economics work. You are not the only educated one here. I also understand how gross competition works as well from dirty unfair nation states. The US has been taking it up the stove pipe for far too many years. Our trade imbalance hurting us, but enabling our competitors and unfair nation states, for far too many decades. I understand better than you it appears. After the initial shock of these tariffs, things will smooth out for the better for American workers and American businesses. You on the other hand buttercup, will just have to suck it up to spending a little bit more, or, just go without. It also appears, that you have no loyalty to this Nation or your fellow American. Money, or the savings of it, blinds you.
Hijinx
Well-Known Member
I know this is inane, but:
I drove past the Leonardtown Ford the other day and there was a high dollar pickup sitting there almost on the road shoulder, and it has a sign on it saying it was offered for sale at a discount of up to $13,000 dollars.
Now I am just a country boy. but if they are willing to drop $13,000 dollars off the top of their price, I must assume the vehicle was priced $13,000 dollars too high to begin with.
I drove past the Leonardtown Ford the other day and there was a high dollar pickup sitting there almost on the road shoulder, and it has a sign on it saying it was offered for sale at a discount of up to $13,000 dollars.
Now I am just a country boy. but if they are willing to drop $13,000 dollars off the top of their price, I must assume the vehicle was priced $13,000 dollars too high to begin with.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
https://cafehayek.com/2018/07/morici-simply-mistaken.html
Between 1997 and 2003, US trade deficit rose from $100 to $500 billion. During that same period, civilian employment rose by 8 million jobs. Between 2003 and 2008, trade deficit increased by $220 billion. Civilian employment rose by 7.6 million jobs. Between 2009 and 2017, trade deficit rose by $182 billion and civilian employment rose by 13 million jobs.
How, exactly, does a trade deficit hurt us?
black dog
Free America
The jobs it creates don't pay any money. In the last year+ incomes out here for factory / warehouse jobs have gone up 2 to 10 dollars an hour.
It shows what Obama did is finally working.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
How do you know that? Median middle class family income has continually increased since the 60's. Jobs have gone up and income has gone up even though the trade deficit has gone up. How can that be if a trade deficit hurts us?
black dog
Free America
Because I lived and worked through most of that, I vividly remember at least 8 years that we got nothing in our pockets in the 80's-90's. I know what I see, and have lived through.
You believe what your read.
Funny about the tire teriff thing, a new tire plant just opened in Anderson,IN that builds tires for the RV manufacturing up in Elkhart..
I guess we can put that plant and all the other manufacturing plants out here that make parts for other manufacturing assembly plants. in The Service Industry because it services other manufacturing plants.
Trump, Still getting sh!t done.. MAGA....