Gas prices

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
Okay, let's try to run over the basics.

For various reasons, oil prices can be quite sensitive to small fluctuations in the supply-demand balance (*). Seemingly small differences in that balance (e.g. demand, supply, or both being above or below some baseline) can cause large differences in prices. For good reasons, its pricing sometimes behaves very differently than what we expect from many other kinds of products. (I'm happy to go into the main whys of that if you're curious.) Further, over any sufficiently long period of time (e.g. 6 months, a year, 2 years) oil pricing has to resolve or average out, so to speak, to whatever the supply-demand realities are for that period of time. (Again, I'm happy to go into the whys of that if you're curious - but it's a basic physical reality of this market.) However, oil pricing at any given moment is largely speculative. It reflects the markets' collective expectations for future (fairly short-term) supply and demand, weighted for various risks that the markets appreciate. That means oil pricing is, looked at at given moments rather than over a long enough period of time, often wrong. That is to say, markets guess wrong and the price doesn't accurately reflect the magic number that's needed to keep supply and demand in balance (i.e. suppress consumption and encourage production enough, or vice versa, such that consumption and production are rough equal). When this happens, and the mis-pricing becomes clear, that pricing has to correct. Further, because of what I suggested before - that prices over longer periods of time necessarily have to be 'correct', sometimes pricing has to overcorrect to undo, so to speak, the supply-demand effects of it having been misplaced in the other direction for a while. That's the background understanding needed to get what's happening now.

Well... some time ago oil prices were, we realize now, higher than they should have been. Markets had priced in geopolitical concerns over supply disruptions that, as it turned out, didn't materialize. Global economies - most everything that matters, aside for the U.S. - have continued to stagnate, perhaps more so than was expected a year or two ago, meaning global demand hasn't increased as fast as might have been expected. Higher priced oil has led to the development of new supply, e.g. from shale deposits, faster and on a greater scale than had been anticipated. Those things, and others, have meant that oil was priced higher a year or 6 months ago than it needed to be - than the magic number, as I called it before, would have been. When this became apparent, when we realized we were (or would be) producing more oil than was being consumed at current prices, oil prices started to correct. And since the mis-pricing had persisted for a while, they arguably went on to overcorrect.

Under different circumstances or at a different time, OPEC likely would have stepped in and stabilized falling prices by cutting production (or, at least, announcing that they were going to cut production). To some extent that was expected this time around, but the likes of Saudi Arabia and the UAE were apparently able to convince the more jumpy members of OPEC to play the long game. That is to say, they decided not to cut production and to let the tumbling oil prices punish some of their newer competition - production that isn't as viable at lower oil prices. OPEC is trying to protect its market share and its control (whatever it has left) of pricing, and it's willing to endure lower oil revenue over the near term in order to do that. It isn't a surprise that Saudi Arabia, e.g., would take that tack, it's in good enough economic shape to play the long game. But it is a bit of a surprise that some of the other members of OPEC, who aren't in as good a shape, would go along. Then again, maybe they realized that the likes of Saudi Arabia and the UAE might just unofficially make up whatever supply they all collectively agreed to cut in order to keep prices falling anyway. So they had no choice but to go along? What Larry suggests - about punishing / exerting control over Russia and Iran - is an additional benefit that likely factored into the decision, but I don't think it was the primary driver of it.

The point of OPEC's decision, its inaction in the face of falling oil prices, is to destroy the last half million barrels per day of production that the world might have been producing a year from now. A key thing to understand about the global oil market is this: Thinking of it in nice round numbers, as a 100 million barrel per day pie, it doesn't so much matter what it costs to produce the first, say, 98 million barrels. Much of that can still be produced very cheaply. What matters is what it costs (or would cost) to produce that last million or two barrels. Oil prices are determined at the margins of supply and demand. And we're seeing quite a bit of evidence that what OPEC is doing, or not doing, is working. There's little question that some oil that would have been being produced a year from now had oil prices remained high, now won't be. I still think that total U.S. production, e.g., will increase over the next year. But it won't increase as much as it would have, and that's the point.

Anyway, there's some oversimplification in there and I've left some aspects of the situation out. But I think that's a fair gist of what's going on and has gone on. Hopefully I didn't run on too long.


I've got some other thoughts I'll try to share after I get back from playing golf. If you have any questions, I'll try to answer them then.

It also sets back the green energy / electric car trend by making the alternative so much more attractive.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Right? :lol:

The only thing I understood of that is that prices were too high, and now they are correcting. Tilted, is that the gist of it? I don't really understand oil politics and why it doesn't follow the rules of supply/demand like other products and services.

I'm going to be dumb here because I sincerely do not understand it. Is it similar to a clearance sale, where there was too much produced and no viable means of storage, so they cut the price to get people buying?

May I have the single sentence version?

I gave it to you. The US and Saudi decided this is what needs to happen for awhile to put Iran and Russia back in their place. It's just that simple.

Oil is MASSIVELY plentiful and a very mature production and delivery system. Controlling price is literally as simple as a few key players agreeing on how far the spigots are to be open. Or Closed. A clearance sale reaches a point there stuff is cleared out. Once it's gone, it's gone.Oil is a limitless supply of clearance items whereby limiting how much you put out is how you control prices...just so long as your buddies are limiting how much clearance items they are putting out, too.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
It also sets back the green energy / electric car trend by making the alternative so much more attractive.

No, it doesn't. It helps them in the best possible way; it makes them look at the problem in terms of what NEEDS to be instead of the training wheels of subsidy and stupidly high oil prices. Now, green can get strong and make it self competitive in a proper fashion instead of the handicapped mess it is.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
No, it doesn't. It helps them in the best possible way; it makes them look at the problem in terms of what NEEDS to be instead of the training wheels of subsidy and stupidly high oil prices. Now, green can get strong and make it self competitive in a proper fashion instead of the handicapped mess it is.
I don't see anywhere where anyone is planning on pulling the pins out the green subsidies, but we'll let you tell it your way. I do see the delta between buying and driving a gas powered machine vs. buying and driving an electric machine increasing to the point where the financials are going to pass the environmental consciousness. In short I don't see it getting strong with anyone but the Ed Begleys of the world.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
Question I have is why there is a $.25/gallon difference between SOMD and places like Waldorf, Annapolis, etc.

Was up Annapolis way about a week ago and it was around $2.20/gallon.

Why is gasoine cheaper at the WaWa in California than at the one in Charlotte Hall, when the trucks have to come through Charlotte Hall to deliver it?
Why is Fuel heating oil more expensive than Diesel I can buy at the gas station? There is no road tax on Fuel oil.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Question I have is why there is a $.25/gallon difference between SOMD and places like Waldorf, Annapolis, etc.

Was up Annapolis way about a week ago and it was around $2.20/gallon.



county taxes ?

distributorship / gas company rules ?? - Zone Pricing ....

I am driving from National Harbor to Hollywood every day now ...... CC gas prices are the cheapest

7.11 on 228 [still PG] 2.51

Charles County

7.11 on Middleton Rd. - 2.25
Wawa @ Billingsely and 301 [White Plains] 2.29
Dash IN [1.5 mile away] 2.29
Shell - Bryantown Rd and 5 / 235 - 2.29 [was 15 cents a gallon higher before Christmas]

In Waldorf [I bypass]

BJ's 2.15
7.11 @ Western Pkwy and 228 - 2.15


Charlotte Hall - St. Marys County

Wawa - 2.41
Shell 2.44
Dash-IN 2.43
7.11 - 2.41
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I don't see anywhere where anyone is planning on pulling the pins out the green subsidies, but we'll let you tell it your way. I do see the delta between buying and driving a gas powered machine vs. buying and driving an electric machine increasing to the point where the financials are going to pass the environmental consciousness. In short I don't see it getting strong with anyone but the Ed Begleys of the world.

Would you not agree that gas falling this much is, in effect, pulling the pin? If the subsidies were 'helpful' at $4 gas, half that price is making 'green' grow up some, would you not agree?
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
The price drop is explained in its most simplistic form: too much supply. It is that simple.



glad you said this ....

it is the REASON Wal-Mart pays minimum wage for a lot of its JOBS - and other companies ...
over supply of LABOR except in North Dakota in the areas where OIL Companies are Fracking ..... there Wal-Mart pays $ 17.50
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I gave it to you. The US and Saudi decided this is what needs to happen for awhile to put Iran and Russia back in their place. It's just that simple.



do you have the super secret meeting notes, of are you just spit balling here ?
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
No, it doesn't. It helps them in the best possible way; .....

maybe

IMHO - it will make it more difficult to justify 15 billion for new Gov. funded / Loan Guarantees



there will be NO further Solyndra's or ABC 123 Battery Company projects in the near future
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
The only good thing for us (other than our household budget) is as the price of gas goes down usage increases.. as more gas is used more tax revenue the State and Federal gov't receives (tax revenue per gallon stays constant despite price per gallon).. as tax revenue increases gov't wI'll less likely pursue other ways to tax our transportation.. ie GPS tracking for per mile taxes.. or just higher per gallon taxes now being discussed in MD.

Hopefully this will cease talks of increased transportation taxes.

(MD on the other hand, will say.. "With lower gas prices consumers can afford additional taxes on their fuel!"
 
Liberals were tearing their hair out when gas went to $1.90 or whatever it was before Obama took office. Insisting that Big Oil was ripping off the common man. Obama took office and not a peep out of them when it went to $4.00 a gallon. I'll be happy when it gets back <$2.00 a gallon.
 
Right? :lol:

The only thing I understood of that is that prices were too high, and now they are correcting. Tilted, is that the gist of it? I don't really understand oil politics and why it doesn't follow the rules of supply/demand like other products and services.

I'm going to be dumb here because I sincerely do not understand it. Is it similar to a clearance sale, where there was too much produced and no viable means of storage, so they cut the price to get people buying?

May I have the single sentence version?

:frown:

That's part of it, and the clearance sale analogy works to some extent - especially the no way of storing excess production (not if we produce too much of it for too long, anyway).

It's important to understand that small changes in net supply can mean large differences in prices, because of the storage issue and for other reasons - reasons that are legitimate, not just market manipulation. Further, what we've seen is not only a correction (i.e. to what would be appropriate pricing based on longer term supply/demand expectations) but an over-correction. Prices are making up for having been too high for a while by being too low for a while. We've seen these kinds of overcorrections in oil pricing in the past, most recently and notably in 2008 when crude prices fell from almost $150 / barrel to about $30 / barrel in less than 6 months before climbing back to around $100 / barrel over the next 2 years and then remaining there for about 4 years.

The other aspect of the situation I was trying to get at is that this is only happening because OPEC, and Saudi Arabia and the UAE in particular, are letting it happen. Often in the past they would stabilize oil prices and not allow these kinds of over-corrections to happen. But they see long-term threats to their oil market share and they're ability to manipulate pricing, e.g. new sources of oil production that are being exploited thanks, in part, to higher oil prices. So they've decided to allow this price crash to happen in hopes of discouraging some of that new production going forward. From their perspective the current global oversupply of oil is a problem, but - to paraphrase a UAE energy minister - it is a problem that OPEC did not cause and so a problem that OPEC isn't going to fix. They are going to let those who made the mistake - those who are responsible for the oversupply - pay the price for it.

Just to put a finer point on that last point, I'd add this. Saudi Arabia all by itself, never mind OPEC collectively, could send our gas prices back above $3 a gallon within a couple of months if it wanted to. Really, if it was willing to endure some short-term economic pain, it could send prices back to $4 a gallon inside a month. It just doesn't want to yet, it wants to send a message (to would-be oil producers, particularly those that would develop higher-cost sources). That, probably more than any other single thing, is why gas prices have fallen this far.


The one sentence version would be: Because... Saudi Arabia was able to convince the rest of OPEC to play the long game when it comes to oil prices.

But I don't know if that, by itself, would make the situation much clearer if you didn't already kinda get what was going on.
 
Larry - for curiosity's sake as I'm obviously not going to hold you to it - what would you be willing to pay for a $40 / barrel oil put that didn't expire for a year?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Larry - for curiosity's sake as I'm obviously not going to hold you to it - what would you be willing to pay for a $40 / barrel oil put that didn't expire for a year?

Oh, gosh. You're asking the guy who knew, JUST KNEW Obama 'got it' in 2009 that energy HAD to be low for the middle class to start to recover. Little did I know he didn't care for the middle class to recover. Me and my assumptions! :lol:

I've long liked $50 and, maybe the world is finally willing to listen to me, damn it. It seems that this has to last at least a year to have been worth it, to achieve some, or all, of the goals so, that part, seems reasonable to me but, again...I've been wrong for 5 years now.

So, what would I pay to get to buy oil at $40 at any time over the next 12 months, right? I struggle with this because my mind is wrapped around what is good for the business, lower the better, vs. an option where I'm just trying to win on the option up or down. Would I pay $10 to lock that in? So, I'm paying $50 a barrel over the next year no matter what it goes to, yes?
 
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