Genesis 19 "I have two daughters"

[seekeroftruth]

Genesis 19:6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”​

Back to the blueletterbible.org site...

The offer is horrible and cannot be justified. We understand it a little more when we consider the low place of women in the pre-Christian world and the very high place of any guest in your home. It was understood a guest was to be protected more than your own family.​

This commentary is from bible-commentaries.com.

Lot's reaction is almost as detestable as the actions of the Sodomites. Commentaries state that oriental hospitality requires that the host defend his guests with his own life. But Lot does not offer his own life. He is not willing to die himself, but rather to sacrifice his daughters instead. Imagine the effect upon the girls to hear their father say such a thing. Whatever respect they may have had for him was certainly lost at this point. Lot's proposal shows how much he had come under the influence of the spirit of Sodom himself. The ethical boundaries have almost been wiped out in his mind. It makes one wonder how much righteousness was left in Lot.​

This is from the easy English commentary.

Lot went outside (verse 6). That shows how wicked all the people in Sodom were. Lot showed great courage. He was trying to protect his visitors. So, Lot went outside alone and he shut the door behind him. Lot offered to bring out his daughters. Then the men in Sodom could do whatever they wanted to them. That was an awful thing to offer. But Lot was desperate to protect his guests. And God protected Lot. God did not punish good people as well as wicked people.​

I couldn't offer my children to save a visitor. But then again, I don't live in an area where the custom says I have to protect my guest above the security of my family. IMHO, Lot knew that the men at the door had no interest whatsoever in women, be they virgin or not. IMHO the author included this in the story to show the men and boys at the door were only interested in homosexual acts.

 

[TheLibertonian]

So wait a minute.

The men of sodom rape everyone who wanders by, but these girls have never had sex with a man, and Lot has been in this city or awhile?

That's some specific depravity.

 

[seekeroftruth]

So wait a minute.

The men of sodom rape everyone who wanders by, but these girls have never had sex with a man, and Lot has been in this city or awhile?

That's some specific depravity.

The author wants to show the specific depravity... IMHO....

 

[TheLibertonian]

The author wants to show the specific depravity... IMHO....

ANd if you accepted this story as allegorical that would be one thing.

But if you think it's the literal truth, we're talking about a society where men only raped other men. Which is...weird? Yeah i'm going to go with weird.

Even taking into account cultural homosexuality (see: the greeks), not every dude is going to party hardy that way.

 

[b23hqb]

ANd if you accepted this story as allegorical that would be one thing.

But if you think it's the literal truth, we're talking about a society where men only raped other men. Which is...weird? Yeah i'm going to go with weird.

Even taking into account cultural homosexuality (see: the greeks), not every dude is going to party hardy that way.

And you were around in Sodom and can attest to that fact? I would say the Greeks were spared the same fate simply because there were hetros around as well, and there is not history of any Greek city that I can think of that was laid waste by fire and brimstone. That's why, in the Bible the word "homosexual" is never used, just the words sodomy and Sodomite. The Greeks came up with the true definition of the act, and there is nothing gay about it.

Just wait until vs 31 - 38 come up. It really gets good then. The ladies of Sodom had their own ideas to at least equal the insidious and despicable actions of their "men".

 

[TheLibertonian]

And you were around in Sodom and can attest to that fact? I would say the Greeks were spared the same fate simply because there is not history of any Greek city that i can think of that was laid waste by fire and brimstone. That's why, in the Bible the word "homosexual" is never used, just the words sodomy and Sodomite.

So the greeks were spared the same fate because....

They didn't get the same fate.

BUt they were super homosexual. Fun fact, the greek word for "vagina" is etymologically one of the roots of their word for "trouble". Having babies was seen as for the good of the state, but you didn't love women. You loved men. They were your intellectual and emotional equals.

They were also pretty rapey. So.

Why did god spare the greeks, but not sodom?

 

[b23hqb]

So the greeks were spared the same fate because....

They didn't get the same fate.

BUt they were super homosexual. Fun fact, the greek word for "vagina" is etymologically one of the roots of their word for "trouble". Having babies was seen as for the good of the state, but you didn't love women. You loved men. They were your intellectual and emotional equals.

They were also pretty rapey. So.

Why did god spare the greeks, but not sodom?

You'll have to ask Him that, but it appears, IMHO, that the old Sodomites were the wickedest, most perverted people in the world, God knew Lot and his roots did not belong there, Lot knew that he didn't belong there, so God gave, and always will, afford those that are His children the opportunity to right their own ship. That doesn't mean that those opportunities will always be taken, and one's time could be up, at God's reckoning.

 

[TheLibertonian]

You'll have to ask Him that, but it appears, IMHO, that the old Sodomites were the wickedest, most perverted people in the world, God knew Lot and his roots did not belong there, Lot knew that he didn't belong there, so God gave, and always will, afford those that are His children the opportunity to right their own ship. That doesn't mean that those opportunities will always be taken, and one's time could be up, at God's reckoning.

But how was Sodom more wicked then ancient Greece?

See, you have a literal interpretation of the bible. This is 100% absolutely truth that happened. Why haven't we found sodom or gammorah in the deserts? Why haven't we found the glass under the sand a rain of fire would cause? HE rained fire and destruction, but did it take it down to the bedrock, and if so, why did he not leave it as a monument to sin, a warning? Why is it the only evidence we have is a badly translated text?

Why did god choose to strike down Sodom, not Greece, or the Soviet Union, or the nazi's?

Why, in fact, does it seem like God has been written by multiple people who don't agree on what God does?

 

[seekeroftruth]

But how was Sodom more wicked then ancient Greece?

See, you have a literal interpretation of the bible. This is 100% absolutely truth that happened. Why haven't we found sodom or gammorah in the deserts? Why haven't we found the glass under the sand a rain of fire would cause? HE rained fire and destruction, but did it take it down to the bedrock, and if so, why did he not leave it as a monument to sin, a warning? Why is it the only evidence we have is a badly translated text?

Why did god choose to strike down Sodom, not Greece, or the Soviet Union, or the nazi's?

Why, in fact, does it seem like God has been written by multiple people who don't agree on what God does?

Didn't the events in Sodom happen long before Greece became populated?

As for no proof of the existence of Sodom.... well there's been quite a lot written about the location.

Here's another site...

And yet another...

If they haven't found it.... they will... just as they found the ark....

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Genesis 19:6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”​

Back to the blueletterbible.org site...

The offer is horrible and cannot be justified. We understand it a little more when we consider the low place of women in the pre-Christian world and the very high place of any guest in your home. It was understood a guest was to be protected more than your own family.​

Men giving their daughters up for gang rape, men having sex with their own daughters (the character of Lot will do this later), and men selling their daughters into sexual slavery with explicit instructions from [god]. All consistent with the savage culture of tribal semi-nomadic primitives in the bronze-age who had a god myth, a creation myth, and many myths and stories to go along with it.

 

[TheLibertonian]

Didn't the events in Sodom happen long before Greece became populated?

As for no proof of the existence of Sodom.... well there's been quite a lot written about the location.

Here's another site...

And yet another...

If they haven't found it.... they will... just as they found the ark....

Actually, I was being a bit of a cheeky word when I said that, because they have found several places that may be Sodom.

Guess what. No rain of fire. Instead the evidence points to either a volcano or possibly a low airburst comment.

But if you believe the bible is 100% true then neither of those work because it says god rained fire. Not "god caused a mountain to explode" or "god caused a rock in the sky to explode". Nope. Rain of fire.

Because of The Rape Gays.

Also, the greeks were around? Not at the height of their power, but around. It's hard to pin down though. The first olympic games were held in 772 BC. The Book of Genesis was codified int eh court of Solomon, so somewhere around 950 BC.

Sodom and Gommorah would have been contemporary with the jordan river civilizations so they would ahve been way back in like...3000-2000 BC eras.

But here's the problem.

if you take it as an allegory, rather then literally every man in the city being a homosexual rapist, and literally being burned to the ground via a rain of fire, you could instead see it as the author trying to explain it in his own language. "The men of the city" could mean "a group of men" and "rain of fire" could mean "a volcanic pyroclastic flow".

But no. If you want literal interprtation, I want literal proof.

As for the textual inconsistites, well, I do have to ask again why god spared the pedophilic homosexual greeks the same fate for doing pretty much the exact same thing, in a time period well before the new covenant between man and god. you could argue that after the new covenant God swore never to do that again, but the Greek civilization rose up well before that point.

 

[b23hqb]

Men giving their daughters up for gang rape, men having sex with their own daughters (the character of Lot will do this later), and men selling their daughters into sexual slavery with explicit instructions from [god]. All consistent with the savage culture of tribal semi-nomadic primitives in the bronze-age who had a god myth, a creation myth, and many myths and stories to go along with it.

Get it right about Lot's character - his two little beauties got him so passed out drunk (his fault) that he could not remember anything and they raped their dad (their fault). So at least read before you continue with your drivel about myths and such. Sodom was millennia before Greece, where a portion of Greeks took sodomy to the homosexual level, but not the entire society like Sodom.

 

[cheezgrits]

Get it right about Lot's character - his two little beauties got him so passed out drunk (his fault) that he could not remember anything and they raped their dad (their fault). So at least read before you continue with your drivel about myths and such. Sodom was millennia before Greece, where a portion of Greeks took sodomy to the homosexual level, but not the entire society like Sodom.

And to quote you from earlier, you were there in ancient Greece?

 

[TheLibertonian]

Get it right about Lot's character - his two little beauties got him so passed out drunk (his fault) that he could not remember anything and they raped their dad (their fault). So at least read before you continue with your drivel about myths and such. Sodom was millennia before Greece, where a portion of Greeks took sodomy to the homosexual level, but not the entire society like Sodom.

Not according to their cultural notes they left behind. Homosexuality was the "norm".

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Get it right about Lot's character - his two little beauties got him so passed out drunk (his fault) that he could not remember anything and they raped their dad (their fault). So at least read before you continue with your drivel about myths and such. Sodom was millennia before Greece, where a portion of Greeks took sodomy to the homosexual level, but not the entire society like Sodom.

I already knew the fundamentalist apologetic you'd come back with for this biblical character's behavior. For your future reference, I'm quite familiar with apologetics of the OT, and the NT. As a former evangelical, I was always skeptical of apologetics and was never a literalist like you. I considered literalists to be wackadoodles then, and now.

For Christian and Islamic fundamentalists alike, the subjugation and mistrust of women makes perfect sense. Looking at the horrors of the Bible or Qu'ran, written by primitive semi-nomadic savages, and trying to make excuses for a homophobic, misogynistic, genocidal god - is what apologetics is all about.