If I hear the "stress" argument one more time..

[tom88]

Just because people experience stress or a traumatic event and even fit the diagnostic criteria for PTSD does not excuse the acts of taking people's lives -- multiple times. (The morning news just reported that the shooter in Orlando told police that he "had been going through a bad time recently and he was sorry".) People ultimately CHOOSE how to respond to life events. Some make good choices and some make bad choices. People who make bad choices should experience the consequences for making that bad choice -- how otherwise, do they learn that it was a bad choice and they should never do that again. When we tolerate and excuse bad choices, we only make it easier for the next person coming along to make that same bad choice as there is no incentive not to do so.

I spent many years working with physically and mentally abused children in a mental facility and what I read and heard from them about events in their lives would curl all of your hair. I experienced a traumatic event and reading over the PTSD diagnostic criteria, probably could have fit into that some years ago. Compassionate PTSD, my azz! I haven't gone off the deep end and shot up a place full of people while yelling the equivalent of "God is Great".

We need to stop looking for excuses for every piddly-azz thing and stop "spinning" things to make them more politically palatable. Until we, as a nation, refuse to tolerate it, it will continue and we will continue to experience these kinds of events.

(okay, ranting is contagious!)

I agree with you when you say that people need to take personal responsibility for thier actions despite suffering from PTSD or any other mental illness. That shouldn't be a mitigating factor when defending one's actions.

 

[Dye Tied]

I got my information from studying psychology for the last four years, and working in inpatient mental units for 5 or 6. And your information is wrong. I will help you. Psychology diagnosis are made using something called the DSM..the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It is revised..and currently in its fourth revision. This contains the criteria for a diagnosis of of all mental disorders..including PTSD. Here is an excerpt from the DSM page on PTSD. It can be found at DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD - National Center for PTSD the national center for PTSD.

DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD

Please foward to these "experts" in the field.

How old are you? Where have you studied? Where exactly do you work? I thought it was at a Food Lion

 

[itsbob]

I agree to the fact that mentally disabled, retarded.. "break with reality" it doesn't make ANY victim any less dead.

If they are a danger to society, their mental status before during and after the fact shouldn't mean squat. You killed somone, you are a danger to society, it does NOT matter why..

Either you go to jail forever or you get the little prick of eternity..

 

[libertytyranny]

How old are you? Where have you studied? Where exactly do you work? I thought it was at a Food Lion

I don't know where you would get that idea. My undergrad degree is in psychology and I work for .... I worked my way through college in hospitals...most often with pysch patients.


edit: I took out where I work..probably not approprate to keep up there.

 

[libertytyranny]

I got my information from studying psychology for the last four years, and working in inpatient mental units for 5 or 6. And your information is wrong. I will help you. Psychology diagnosis are made using something called the DSM..the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. It is revised..and currently in its fourth revision. This contains the criteria for a diagnosis of of all mental disorders..including PTSD. Here is an excerpt from the DSM page on PTSD. It can be found at DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD - National Center for PTSD the national center for PTSD.

DSM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD

Thank you for that information on PTSD. Let me give you my quote again, and go over what I said. Evidently, you concentrated way too much on the psychology, but not enough on comprehension.



For this last bold, I would direct you to the information you quoted in the SM-IV-TR criteria for PTSD. The person could witness a traumatic event and still develop PTSD.

Now I am sure that you will look for some way to twist this around, or insult me, as this seems to be your modus operandi. I will choose not to debate you any longer, as I doubt your credentials but there is no way for me to prove this.

Here is your entire qoute.
I don't know where your information about PTSD is derived but doctors in the field are saying that counselors and others who are continuously subjected to descriptions of traumatic incidents may develop stress related illnesses themselves.

I am not saying that this shooter had PTSD or should be looked at as a victim at all, but your information as to PTSD requiring a person to actually experience the trauma seems to be contradicted by experts in the field.



The bolded section is where you said that "experts" say you dont have to experience trauma to have PTSD. I showed you explicitly and without doubt that you were wrong. That is absolutely required.

When the DSM says witness trauma..it means directly. (for example, you may witness a bank robbery as a customer)....NOT that you for example watch a scary movie..... Because if you notice the second condition to be satisfied is that the person has to reasonably believe that their life is in danger, or that they may experience extreme harm. So listening to a trauma would not satisfy these conditions. It is not hard to understand. You want to talk about "stress related illnesses" but that is not what I was responding to. I was responding to your incorrect statement that you could be diagnosed with PTSD without trauma.

Also, I have not insulted anyone. In fact it is you that has insulted my information, experience, and comprehension. I simply gave you the correct information, so that you would not be ill informed.

 

[itsbob]

I don't know where you would get that idea. My undergrad degree is in psychology and I work for a gov't contractor. I worked my way through college in hospitals...most often with pysch patients.

Do you do any in depth studies on dwarfs and midgets??

 

[Baja28]

Perhaps you could provide more information about this. When I looked for some, the only thing I found was a person who wished to remain anonymous had told a third party who had reported it to a local news media outlet.

This is why I said I would wait for the investigators to inform me as to what the motive was for the shooting, rather than listen to third party anonymous sources to provide me with factual information.

I hope this is not how you operate your life or daily business.

You're so fulla crap your eyes are brown. I remember you being obsessed in the damn dog thread. You must be another muslim animal sympathizer.

Better go read more news sources. It's out there on more than one.

Muslim major screamed 'Allahu Akbar' before slaughtering 13 at Ft. Hood
Fort Hood suspect said his goodbyes before rampage - Yahoo! News
Ft. Hood Shooting Suspect Nidal Malik Hasan Reportedly Shouted "Allahu Akbar" - Crimesider - CBS News

There's many more if you simply look.

 

[Dye Tied]

I don't know where you would get that idea. My undergrad degree is in psychology and I work for a gov't contractor. I worked my way through college in hospitals...most often with pysch patients.

What college? So, what is your degree in if your undergrad is in psych?

Why am I asking...just curious after some of your comments.

 

[libertytyranny]

What college? So, what is your degree in if your undergrad is in psych?

Why am I asking...just curious after some of your comments.

I have no idea why you would be so curious. Or think anything about food lion. I am confused. I don't know if youre simply asking questions, or are being a smartass or some such. It is hard to tell around here. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, though.

I went to Mount St. Mary's University, and have a bachelor of science in psychology. I am currently working on my MBA, at Bellevue University Online.

 

[tom88]

You're so fulla crap your eyes are brown. I remember you being obsessed in the damn dog thread. You must be another muslim animal sympathizer.

Better go read more news sources. It's out there on more than one.

I remember the dog thread, and If I remember correctly, the owner lied about the dog never biting anyone, and the investigation cleared the officer who shot the dog. Everybody seems to forget that fact.

Second, here is what the articles YOU quoted said.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said officials had not yet confirmed that the suspected shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, made the comment before the rampage Thursday. Hasan was among 30 people wounded in the shooting spree and remained hospitalized on a ventilator.

Soldiers reported that the gunman shouted "Allahu Akbar!" — an Arabic phrase for "God is great!" — before opening fire Thursday, said Lt. Gen. Robert Cone, the base commander. He said officials had not confirmed Hasan made the comment.
Hasan's family said in a statement Friday that his alleged actions were deplorable and don't reflect how the family was reared.

Lt. Gen. Robert Cone said officials had not yet confirmed that the suspected shooter, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, made the comment before the rampage Thursday. Hasan was among 30 people wounded in the shooting spree and remained hospitalized on a ventilator.

I know the first and the last pargraph are the same, but that is what you gave me, two articles with identicle quotes, each saying it isn't confirmed.

Is this how you base all the decisions in your life? You go by unconfirmed information rather than information that is concluded after an investigation of all the facts?

I don't remember your point of view about the dog incident but I would not be surprised to find that you were on the side of the lying owner.

 

[MMDad]

Is this how you base all the decisions in your life? You go by unconfirmed information rather than information that is concluded after an investigation of all the facts?

Are you implying that it is not appropriate to form an opinion based on the available information? We shouldn't have an opinion until after the investigation is over, probably not for a year or longer?

WTF? You don't make any sense!

 

[tom88]

Are you implying that it is not appropriate to form an opinion based on the available information? We shouldn't have an opinion until after the investigation is over, probably not for a year or longer?

WTF? You don't make any sense!

No, that isn't what I am saying at all. You can have an opinion when ever you want. This conversation between me and this other guy started when I said I don't know what the guys reason was for shooting these people.

Then this baja guy wrote back something about him shouting "Allahu Akbar". My point is if you are going to base your opinion on that information, shouldn't it be confirmed by someone? Shouldn't you be able to say Joe Blow said that instead of anonymous sources?

 

[SEABREEZE 1957]

I have no idea why you would be so curious. Or think anything about food lion. I am confused. I don't know if youre simply asking questions, or are being a smartass or some such. It is hard to tell around here. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, though.

I went to Mount St. Mary's University, and have a bachelor of science in psychology. I am currently working on my MBA, at Bellevue University Online.

Mount St. Mary's University - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report

Good school.

 

[Baja28]

No, that isn't what I am saying at all. You can have an opinion when ever you want. This conversation between me and this other guy started when I said I don't know what the guys reason was for shooting these people.

Then this baja guy wrote back something about him shouting "Allahu Akbar". My point is if you are going to base your opinion on that information, shouldn't it be confirmed by someone? Shouldn't you be able to say Joe Blow said that instead of anonymous sources?

They AREN't annonymous sources. They are U.S. Soldiers. Are you insinuating that the soldiers there in the immediate aftermath suddenly got together to form a conspiracy?? The General simply said they weren't confirmed yet as the General won't comment on an ongoing investigation.

With news agencies around the world reporting it, I will chose to believe it especially with all the additional information about this animal coming out. You keep your head in the sand and I'll keep mine alert and informed.

 

[hvp05]

Are you insinuating that the soldiers there in the immediate aftermath suddenly got together to form a conspiracy??

Maintaining anonymity has nothing to do with the accuracy of one's account, just that they do not wish to be identified; maybe Tom needs to look that up. And if multiple soldiers were saying it, that lends more weight to the claim.

He wants to wait until the investigation is over, but what will the investigation be based upon? The recollections of those who were there.

Plus, yesterday ImnoMensa (I think) posted a video of some Muslims preaching on the street how this was religiously motivated, and this was directed at the American military at large, not simply this one installation. With other Muslims carrying his religious banner for him, I think that should send a warning signal.

 

[SA475]

I am going to scream until I pass out, wake up..and do it again.


Even Fox is in on it..talking about "compassion stress."

This #### is so illogical my mind is boggled.

PTSD?? The man had never been deployed. He sat in an office. Even If he had been deployed, he would have likely been doing the same damn thing. They weren't going to put him in a pair of sandals and ask him to go sniff out roadside bombs. PTSD requires trauma. The man spent most of his military time having his degree paid for.

and 'compassion stress." How fu**ing stupid. So if that were true it would have to mean that hearing the sad stories of the soldiers seeking his care..would have stressed him out. Fine I may be able to understand that...but how that equals him killing the very people he felt "compassion" for...I just don't understand.

Logic is dead. There is nothing logical about this theory. Nothing at all. I cannot wrap my head around any of it. I'm trying. I want to. But nothing fits.

So don't call him a terrorist. Fine, whatever. But I wish to hell that libs would STOP tryin to use this man as a way to rail against the military and war. That's the only reason I can of that they would continue to push this assanine theory.

Agreed. This guy couldn't have had PTSD w/o having been deployed. I spent 6 months in Iraq - and I had a mild case of PTSD... But I didn't go around shooting anyone.

 

[tom88]

They AREN't annonymous sources. They are U.S. Soldiers. Are you insinuating that the soldiers there in the immediate aftermath suddenly got together to form a conspiracy?? The General simply said they weren't confirmed yet as the General won't comment on an ongoing investigation.

With news agencies around the world reporting it, I will chose to believe it especially with all the additional information about this animal coming out. You keep your head in the sand and I'll keep mine alert and informed.

Did you read what the Lt. General said. That it was unconfirmed that any U.S. Soldiers had said that. Unconfirmed. Meaning that no credible source at the time you quoted those articles had been able to confirm that the guy yelled that.

The Lt. General made plenty of comments about the on going investigation.

It would be idiotic for someone to jump to a conclusion about someone who did something without knowing facts, and rely on the media information without confirmed sources.

You sound as dumb as a polititian who would say that police act stupidly because they arrest a homeowner when the polititian doesn't have all the facts.

 

[tom88]

Maintaining anonymity has nothing to do with the accuracy of one's account, just that they do not wish to be identified; maybe Tom needs to look that up. And if multiple soldiers were saying it, that lends more weight to the claim.

He wants to wait until the investigation is over, but what will the investigation be based upon? The recollections of those who were there.

Plus, yesterday ImnoMensa (I think) posted a video of some Muslims preaching on the street how this was religiously motivated, and this was directed at the American military at large, not simply this one installation. With other Muslims carrying his religious banner for him, I think that should send a warning signal.

If a soldier said he heard this, and someone from the investigation CONFIRMS that a soldier said he or she heard this, then that is good enough for me. But to speculate on information that is unconfirmed is irresponsible. How many times does the media get it wrong?

 

[Baja28]

Did you read what the Lt. General said. That it was unconfirmed that any U.S. Soldiers had said that. Unconfirmed. Meaning that no credible source at the time you quoted those articles had been able to confirm that the guy yelled that.

The Lt. General made plenty of comments about the on going investigation.

It would be idiotic for someone to jump to a conclusion about someone who did something without knowing facts, and rely on the media information without confirmed sources.

You sound as dumb as a polititian who would say that police act stupidly because they arrest a homeowner when the polititian doesn't have all the facts.

You show that you're as dumb as a bag of hair. He shouted it. It was reported around the world and just because a general says it wasn't confirmed didn't make it any less true.

If you're going to call someone dumb as a politician, at least have a 5th grade education to know how to spell politician.