No Child Left Behind

sparkyaclown

Active Member
crabcake said:
By all accounts, in my opinion, her school is perfect for her, and I don't see a need to move her because other students aren't performing. If she was one of the under-performers, I'd be all over the notion of moving her to another school to get what she needs.

Leave her there, according to a teacher I know she stated that schools are beginning to focus alot more attention on high performers and pushing them to excel. Since the pass or fail of a school is the average of the MSAs pushing the high performers is the easiest way to boost that average. As an example she stated that in her school in the past a parent could request their child be placed in the higher level classes and the school would comply even though the child truly didn't belong. This of course ended up holding the others back. This year a student must prove they belong there. They want nothing holding those with the willingness and ability to learn back. School systems are becoming desparate as the population of students who underperform just because they choose to increases and pulls down their averages more.
 
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Pete

Repete
Woodyspda said:
And it punishes the school system when it isn't necessarily to blame.

It makes zero sense for a gifted student to sit around and wait for an average student to catch up. It makes even less sense for the average student to wait for a mentally challenged student to catch up to them. They should all be taught at a relative pace to their capabilities. I reiterate what I said before..... parental interaction is a major factor as far as student performance goes. If you aren't willing to sit down with your child every night to at least see what they are learning, you have no right to complain when they fail or falter.

NCLB is a way for the government to standardize the national school system... oh wait, there is no national school system.
Why is it considered punishment when a school that chronically fails to meet standards is examined and changes made? What NCLB is meant to do is to identify, examine and rectify failing schools and it does just that. In the old method the government would just throw more money at them as if a dollar bill is going to march in and teach how to add fractions. If a superintendent/principal/teacher or other official is relieved of their duties because a district/school/grade continuously fails to measure up vs. county and state averages then so be it. It is not personal but has to be done. What do you propose leaving them there and letting another couple hundred kid wallow around in a sub par educational facility so their feelings don't get hurt?

You can beat the parental interaction drum all day and all night and it is not going to change the fact that a bunch of parents think school is daycare. They are not going to step up, they are not going to interact they are not going to care. The other indisputable fact you cannot change is that those kids with indifferent parents to education are those that are going to make up the bulk of the low end. That being said, NCLB has to step in and set standards for the school to achieve, or try to achieve so the place doesn't just become the day care center some think it is.

Every business, every organization and every person must have some motivation to achieve. In most cases it is money, or to prevent negative consequences. NCLB does give that motivation. Whereas before if Johnny couldn't read and do basic math in the 11th grade there was none. Too bad for Johnny. If they do not achieve on par with county, state and national levels (and the categories are fairly broad) the school is identified. If they still don't they are examined, if they STILL don't then changes happen.

As far as the different levels of achievement and students sitting and waiting unchallenged even for brief periods you have to be realistic. There is no way a public school could asses and sub divide classes to meet every child's learning pace. Even in gifted classes you are going to have "really gifted" and "Kind of gifted". Short of assigning a teacher per kid someone is going to have some unchallenged periods. My kids school uses several techniques to address this. Boy was behind the curve in reading. So if you have a kid who cannot read on par why make them sit in classes that have a great deal of reading like Social Studies and hold everyone back and drop the average of that class? So they have different classes that teach the same subjects at slightly different levels until they can improve enough to rejoin the regular class. Same with math. In my kids elementary school they are very proactive in moving kids around to allow a lower student to teacher ratio, different level subjects, extra help, not as much help and so on. Some kids may change classrooms 2-3 times a day to get instruction that is more tailored to them. All because of NCLB. Now there are negative consequences for having capable yet ignored, lower achievers bringing down the grade average. Conversely there are also negative consequences to ignoring gifted (I hate that term) kids mire themselves in mediocrity because they can also lower the grade average by not achieving to their full potential.

NCLB act is not a way for the government to nationalize schools, it is a way for the government to stop wasting money with no recourse when the school system in X still fails. It has been left up to the states and for decades they have done little more than stick their hands out and want more money. Now the responsiblity rests directly on them and the unions they are in bed with and they don't like it.
 
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Chasey_Lane

Salt Life
Pete said:
Every business, every organization and every person must have some motivation to achieve. In most cases it is money, or to prevent negative consequences. NCLB does give that motivation.
That "motivation" can also be shady. States can create their own standardized tests, thus teaching "to the test" making the test easier and scores higher.
 

sparkyaclown

Active Member
Pete said:
NCLB act is not a way for the government to nationalize schools, it is a way for the government to stop wasting money with no recourse when the school system in X still fails. It has been left up to the states and for decades they have done little more than stick their hands out and want more money. Now the responsiblity rests directly on them and the unions they are in bed with and they don't like it.

Problem is the law was poorly written. You can't hold accountabllity for something beyond the state's control. The lawmakers seemed to have overlooked the fact that you can't force a child to learn. While I'm sure a loophole opens it up to probable abuse. Leaving it as is unfairly judges a school and it's faculty.
 

Pete

Repete
Chasey_Lane said:
That "motivation" can also be shady. States can create their own standardized tests, thus teaching "to the test" making the test easier and scores higher.
There is no fool proof method but this one, while arguably flawed is certainly better than trucking in loads of cash to school districts that continue to underperform for years and years.

Laws get written, revised, revised again and revised again. :shrug:

If the tested material is the core skill set they want to improve who cares if they teach to the test? How can you go wrong teaching a kid how to add fractions to pass a test if the end goal is to teach a kid how to add fractions?
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Pete said:
There is no fool proof method but this one, while arguably flawed is certainly better than trucking in loads of cash to school districts that continue to underperform for years and years.

Laws get written, revised, revised again and revised again. :shrug:

If the tested material is the core skill set they want to improve who cares if they teach to the test? How can you go wrong teaching a kid how to add fractions to pass a test if the end goal is to teach a kid how to add fractions?
One revision away form a perfect law!!
 

Pete

Repete
sparkyaclown said:
Problem is the law was poorly written. You can't hold accountabllity for something beyond the state's control. The lawmakers seemed to have overlooked the fact that you can't force a child to learn. While I'm sure a loophole opens it up to probable abuse. Leaving it as is unfairly judges a school and it's faculty.
You are correct, but I doubt little Suzy is sitting in 4th grade and steadfastly resuses to learn and relishes everyone being smarter than her.

The test results are based on averages, compared to averages, that are part of averages. It is the best they can do :shrug:

I do not for a minute think that there are schools that are disproportionately loaded with kids that are so ignorant as a whole they cannot be taught. But for argument sake lets say there is one. That school chronically fails to meet projections. The state school board sends a team down to investigate and discovers the school and the administrators effectively use all the tools and methods available. They try new approaches, have hired more qualified teachers to reduce the student to teacher ratio, and still the school over the course of a couple years is significantly low but because of a tainted gene pool. Do you think they are going to go in and flog school faculty? Fire them and replace them with new victims?
 

Chasey_Lane

Salt Life
Pete said:
If the tested material is the core skill set they want to improve who cares if they teach to the test? How can you go wrong teaching a kid how to add fractions to pass a test if the end goal is to teach a kid how to add fractions?
But by this logic, schools could set their standards lower in order for kids to pass these tests without much regard to what they are actually learning. They will still get promoted to the next level and the school is seen as a good educator.
 

Pete

Repete
Chasey_Lane said:
But by this logic, schools could set their standards lower in order for kids to pass these tests without much regard to what they are actually learning. They will still get promoted to the next level and the school is seen as a good educator.
I don't understand your argument. :confused: The schools do not set the standards the state/fed government does. IE: A fifth grade student should be able to calculate the area of a circle. then they test to see if they can. :shrug: Same with reading. So, if the goal is to teach them the skills needed to pass the test, and you teach them how to pass the test, you are defacto teaching them the core skill they want tom to know anyway.

The MSA or other standardized test has nothing to do with being promoted or not. The scores are not even factored into their grades nor are they in a format that could be if they wanted to. they are like SAT grades and the report shows your kids score, how it compares to the school district, state and national level. I am not even sure the school knows who scored what, just the average for that grade/class. Boy's was mailed to me at home from the state in a sealed envelope.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Chasey_Lane said:
But by this logic, schools could set their standards lower in order for kids to pass these tests without much regard to what they are actually learning. They will still get promoted to the next level and the school is seen as a good educator.
The schools that already have the higher standards might set their standards lower, but why would they - they'd already be well ahead of what was expected of them. The schools that are not doing what they're supposed to do well enough would have to raise their standards to be doing the minimum.

As far as not having regard for what the kids are learning... it seems like the standards for most of the education (the basics) would be being set at some consistent level, and local districts could adjust to above that in whatever category they want - just like it was before, but with some kind of assurance that the basics are being taught.
 

Pete

Repete
This_person said:
The schools that already have the higher standards might set their standards lower, but why would they - they'd already be well ahead of what was expected of them. The schools that are not doing what they're supposed to do well enough would have to raise their standards to be doing the minimum.

As far as not having regard for what the kids are learning... it seems like the standards for most of the education (the basics) would be being set at some consistent level, and local districts could adjust to above that in whatever category they want - just like it was before, but with some kind of assurance that the basics are being taught.
:yeahthat: But your first statement caused me to wonder when some jackass is going to say a school district would actually tell a school that was a high achiever to slow down so they didn't inflate the average for the rest of the district.

with the number of conspriacy theorists and crackpots here who are suspect of EVERYTHING I am sure it will be tried.
 

Pete

Repete
Chasey_Lane said:
My take is that states can set their own standardized tests. No?
They are urged to use one established or yes thay can make up their own that test for standards formulated by the state and federal government. Don't forget, national averages count too in the analysis. Would you want to be the governor of a state that was dead ass last? Would you run the risk of losing federal dollars by trying to jack the system?

NCLB is basically a law that holds people accoubtable.
 

kalmd

Active Member
My son brought his MSA results from home school too. In the past, they've always been mailed. I was actually wondering about them, because I thought we always got them a lot sooner than we did this year. He brought them home last Friday, I think.
 
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