No, Christianity Should Not ‘Welcome’ or ‘Include’ Your Sinf

[ProximaCentauri]

Oh please. If you will notice I said "most", and the same could be said for all children, including atheists. I can assure you that Catholics reach the age of reason and make their own choices as adults just like anyone else. I can't believe I even have to reiterate this.

"Age of Reason"...an ironic term in Catholicism, if Catholics could reason there wouldn't be any Catholics

But I'm sure you get my point, it's not a choice but a 'fait accompli' for most Catholics. Indoctrination overpowers reason.

 

[Amused_despair]

"Age of Reason"...an ironic term in Catholicism, if Catholics could reason there wouldn't be any Catholics

But I'm sure you get my point, it's not a choice but a 'fait accompli' for most Catholics. Indoctrination overpowers reason.

So it is lack of reason for catholic children to adopt the faith of their parents but is it incredible insightfulness for Southern Baptist children to adopt the faith of their parents?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

So it is lack of reason for catholic children to adopt the faith of their parents...

No, I would say more like the subversion of reason through indoctrination.

...but is it incredible insightfulness for Southern Baptist children to adopt the faith of their parents?

Of course not. Indoctrination into any religion from a young age is the primary determinant of an individual's religious affiliation into adulthood - insightfulness does not enter into it. To apply insightfulness implies one critically examines their belief system. This almost never occurs when you are immersed in a particular religious belief system from birth.

Religious indoctrination will trump reason when it comes to examining ones religious beliefs against those of other religions or sects, or against no belief at all. That is not to say that religious people are incapable of reason, but they put reason and critical examination aside when it comes to their faith.

 

[Radiant1]

No, I would say more like the subversion of reason through indoctrination.



Of course not. Indoctrination into any religion from a young age is the primary determinant of an individual's religious affiliation into adulthood - insightfulness does not enter into it. To apply insightfulness implies one critically examines their belief system. This almost never occurs when you are immersed in a particular religious belief system from birth.

Religious indoctrination will trump reason when it comes to examining ones religious beliefs against those of other religions or sects, or against no belief at all. That is not to say that religious people are incapable of reason, but they put reason and critical examination aside when it comes to their faith.

IF this is true, then it's true across the board and agnostics or atheists are not immune to their own indoctrination. I'm thinking if you want to use this premise you can't rightly pick on religion alone.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

IF this is true, then it's true across the board and agnostics or atheists are not immune to their own indoctrination. I'm thinking if you want to use this premise you can't rightly pick on religion alone.

The definition of indoctrination is the acceptance of a set of beliefs or belief system uncritically.Your notion that indoctrination plays the same role in agnosticism or atheism as it does in theism would have more validity if agnosticism/atheism was a belief system analogous to a religious belief system. On the contrary, agnosticism/atheism is the lack of a belief system.

“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth — often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
― Hypatia

 

[Chuckt]

The definition of indoctrination is the acceptance of a set of beliefs or belief system uncritically.Your notion that indoctrination plays the same role in agnosticism or atheism as it does in theism would have more validity if agnosticism/atheism was a belief system analogous to a religious belief system. On the contrary, agnosticism/atheism is the lack of a belief system.

“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth — often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
― Hypatia

God was silently calling me. I tried to leave the faith. God kept calling me back.

I took a leap of faith and God met me.

When God said don't eat of the tree or you would die, your spirit died so it is harder for you to discern God being there.

I would like to work harder and use my knowledge to understand when God would be willing to accomplish miracles and to see God do greater things. It is sort of like having a microscope. You don't know what is there unless you are willing to look and the ignorant and unbelieving are unwilling to wait on God.

 

[Radiant1]

The definition of indoctrination is the acceptance of a set of beliefs or belief system uncritically.Your notion that indoctrination plays the same role in agnosticism or atheism as it does in theism would have more validity if agnosticism/atheism was a belief system analogous to a religious belief system. On the contrary, agnosticism/atheism is the lack of a belief system.

“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth — often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
― Hypatia

It doesn't matter if it's a "belief system" or not. It's something taught to children therefore it's indoctrination.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

God was silently calling me. I tried to leave the faith. God kept calling me back.

I took a leap of faith and God met me.

When God said don't eat of the tree or you would die, your spirit died so it is harder for you to discern God being there.

I would like to work harder and use my knowledge to understand when God would be willing to accomplish miracles and to see God do greater things. It is sort of like having a microscope. You don't know what is there unless you are willing to look and the ignorant and unbelieving are unwilling to wait on God.

Chuckt, you are the proverbial street preacher and this forum is your street corner. The Abrahamic religions are anti-knowledge as demonstrated in your 'tree of knowledge' story; better for controlling the willing ignorant.

Your 2 way conversations with god seem to happen with schizophrenics and religious zealots. I consider the latter a kind of self-induced 'religious schizophrenia'. If you were talking to god through a hair dryer you would most certainly be labeled 'crazy'. I don't see where the addition of a hair dryer makes any difference.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

It doesn't matter if it's a "belief system" or not. It's something taught to children therefore it's indoctrination.

Does Atheism need to be taught to children? Aren't all children born as Atheists? A blank slate that subsequently adopts the religion of their of their birthparents/birth region/culture. Adopting the doctrine of Islam in Islamic countries, Christianity in Christian dominated countries, Hinduism in India, and so-on.

And if they are born to Atheist parents, what doctrine would they be indoctrinated into? There is no doctrine of Atheism. Would not 'no belief' be the default for children brought up in a non-believing family and society. Would this require 'indoctrination' into Atheism?

By the way, the vast majority of Atheists/Humanists were former Christians. Indoctrinated into Christianity, usually from childhood. But the indoctrination failed somehow or at least did not last for their lifetime. Education may have had an impact as the majority of Atheists are college educated; there's that knowledge thing again.

 

[Radiant1]

Does Atheism need to be taught to children? Aren't all children born as Atheists? A blank slate that subsequently adopts the religion of their of their birthparents/birth region/culture. Adopting the doctrine of Islam in Islamic countries, Christianity in Christian dominated countries, Hinduism in India, and so-on.

And if they are born to Atheist parents, what doctrine would they be indoctrinated into? There is no doctrine of Atheism. Would not 'no belief' be the default for children brought up in a non-believing family and society. Would this require 'indoctrination' into Atheism?

By the way, the vast majority of Atheists/Humanists were former Christians. Indoctrinated into Christianity, usually from childhood. But the indoctrination failed somehow or at least did not last for their lifetime. Education may have had an impact as the majority of Atheists are college educated; there's that knowledge thing again.

Atheism is taught just like any other -ism. Do you have children? If so, I guarantee you that when they start to ponder the vastness of the universe and ponder on the notion whether there is a higher intelligence somewhere or someway or whether stuff just happened (as I think all humans do if left to themselves) that you are going to teach them or steer them according to your own standards and world view. Ergo, you will teach them atheism and you will have done so from the beginning of their life.

What you're telling me is that indoctrination can fail for some reason for those whom willingly choose atheism, but not for those whom willingly choose something other than atheism, which I know to be bull#### because I'm living proof it's not as are countless others. IF you truly believe that, then it sounds as if you've been indoctrinated and are believing a fantasy. The last stat I read was that 51% of scientists believed in God in one form or another. Surely you are not going to declare that 51% uneducated.

I am one of a growing number of people who find no dichotomy between science and religion. They are two angles searching for the same thing, truth. One searches for how and the other why. If I remember correctly, you and I have had this conversation before?


My mother is in the hospital again, so my time is extraordinarily limited right now. I'll try to catch up with this later if the thread hasn't gone off on other tangents or has died by then.

 

[cheezgrits]

I'll just leave this here...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/children-religion-fact-fiction_n_5607009.html

 

[Bird Dog]

K

I'll just leave this here...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/21/children-religion-fact-fiction_n_5607009.html

So I guess Secular/Humanist kids don't believe in Santa Claus......

 

[cheezgrits]

K

So I guess Secular/Humanist kids don't believe in Santa Claus......

Could be. just throwing that in there for the discussion over indoctrination versus learning. I'm not on either side. I think a balance of science with a belief system and the mysteries of life makes a well rounded person. No one way has to be the right way. I am a contradiction to the norm. I was born in the South into the Baptist church and was dunked and all that. Then the church showed its hypocritical values and we converted to Episcopalian. I worshiped in the Catholic Church as well. I have eventually come to my own belief system based on all my life experiences and learning. Lucky me, I suppose.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Atheism is taught just like any other -ism.

There is no ideology of atheism, no doctrine of atheism, so nothing to teach. Yes Atheists teach kids to be open minded, to use reason and critical thinking, to be skeptical of claims for which there is no proof. But these concepts, one would hope, would be taught to all kids. The sad truth is this is not the case in many religious homes, especially fundamentalist religious homes where the emphasis is on myth and dogma.

What you're telling me is that indoctrination can fail for some reason for those whom willingly choose atheism, but not for those whom willingly choose something other than atheism, which I know to be bull#### because I'm living proof it's not as are countless others. IF you truly believe that, then it sounds as if you've been indoctrinated and are believing a fantasy. The last stat I read was that 51% of scientists believed in God in one form or another. Surely you are not going to declare that 51% uneducated.

A straw man argument on your part and you missed the point. The vast majority of Atheists were not influenced by an atheist upbringing, as is the case with theism and its tendency to indoctrinate children from a young age in religious dogma. These same Atheists are college educated at a significantly higher rate than the general population, including scientists - which I didn't bring into the argument, you did - but in doing so, you only add more confirmation that atheists are among the more highly educated among us. This does not imply that all highly educated scientists must therefore be atheist.

I am one of a growing number of people who find no dichotomy between science and religion. They are two angles searching for the same thing, truth. One searches for how and the other why. If I remember correctly, you and I have had this conversation before?

Seems to ring a bell, and would be happy to discuss in its own thread. But religion is not "searching for the truth", it has already defined it according to its writings and dogma. The RCC has moderated its views, for example the RCC's acceptance of evolution, and that's all well and good but as long as it sticks stubbornly to archaic beliefs, such as it's stance on homosexuality, opposition to birth control, opposition to stem cell research, etc,, there can be no true alignment.

Hope your mom does well. That's infinitely more important than this.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Could be. just throwing that in there for the discussion over indoctrination versus learning. I'm not on either side. I think a balance of science with a belief system and the mysteries of life makes a well rounded person. No one way has to be the right way. I am a contradiction to the norm. I was born in the South into the Baptist church and was dunked and all that. Then the church showed its hypocritical values and we converted to Episcopalian. I worshiped in the Catholic Church as well. I have eventually come to my own belief system based on all my life experiences and learning. Lucky me, I suppose.

 

[Gilligan]

Or you could join us Druids. Our motto "established 2500 years before anyone even thunk of Christianity, and we make killer mead"

 

[Chuckt]

There is no ideology of atheism, no doctrine of atheism, so nothing to teach. Yes Atheists teach kids to be open minded, to use reason and critical thinking, to be skeptical of claims for which there is no proof. But these concepts, one would hope, would be taught to all kids. The sad truth is this is not the case in many religious homes, especially fundamentalist religious homes where the emphasis is on myth and dogma.

Atheism is an assumption because if you go backwards in time and poll today, theism is the default belief and not atheism. Atheists are a minority.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Atheism is an assumption because if you go backwards in time and poll today, theism is the default belief and not atheism. Atheists are a minority.

An assumption of what?

 

[Chuckt]

An assumption of what?

An assumption that God doesn't exist. Agnosticism would be the default before atheism.

 

[cheezgrits]

An assumption that God doesn't exist. Agnosticism would be the default before atheism.

Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. Older dictionaries define atheism as "a belief that there is no God."
An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine.

There really cannot be any "default" belief, humans are not machines, computers or software. If you think that, then you are supporting design, not creation.