Springfield Arms...

Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bigpops92 said:
Interesting conversation you guys have going on here. I would guess, just me talking, the average person with average practice time would be better served with a 9mm for home protection.

"Knockdown power", "energy dispersal", etc aside...the average person can't kill/wound what they cant hit! Especially on a follow up shot.

Given a home invasion scenerio, at night, intruder coming down the hallway, a person with minimal practice will simply put several holes in a wall with a 45. That is if they can manage the recoil and not limp wrist the gun creating a stove pipe condition.
A 9mm is a little easier to shoot, especially on a follow up shot.

Just my $.02.
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Damnedest thing. I had one of my cousins kids out to shoot. She's done the NRA handgun safety course, I believe, whatever that is. I am unfamiliar with it. And that's about it shooting handguns.

In any event, she's 19, typical size, weight, good athlete. So, my full size .45 shooting 230/fmj, not a problem in the world. Shooting full size 9mm baretta, constant stove pipes. I fiddled with her grip again and again and admonished her to stiffen up her dominate arm to no avail. Back to .45, no problems. Most people I take out who are first timers ALWAYS struggle with the .45 to be firm enough and rarely, if ever, the 9. Odd.

So, to me, unless one practices fairly regularly, I always say a .38 revolver, maybe a .357, is most idiot proof and reliable. No mags. No recoil issues. No safeties. Pretty intuitive to point and fire.

:buddies:
 
itsbob

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Larry Gude said:
Damnedest thing. I had one of my cousins kids out to shoot. She's done the NRA handgun safety course, I believe, whatever that is. I am unfamiliar with it. And that's about it shooting handguns.

In any event, she's 19, typical size, weight, good athlete. So, my full size .45 shooting 230/fmj, not a problem in the world. Shooting full size 9mm baretta, constant stove pipes. I fiddled with her grip again and again and admonished her to stiffen up her dominate arm to no avail. Back to .45, no problems. Most people I take out who are first timers ALWAYS struggle with the .45 to be firm enough and rarely, if ever, the 9. Odd.

So, to me, unless one practices fairly regularly, I always say a .38 revolver, maybe a .357, is most idiot proof and reliable. No mags. No recoil issues. No safeties. Pretty intuitive to point and fire.

:buddies:
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This will get AK 74 going again, but in my expereience the .45 is more controllable and easier to stay on for the follow on shot..

Most of my experience between the two calibres was with SMG's and a less so with handguns.

With the 9mm UZI and HK MP5 that the BGS and Bundeswehr used, and the .45 Grease Gun (M3A1) that we carried I found the Grease Gun much easier to control, and a lot easier to put 4 or 5 rounds in the target. You did get substantial barrel rise, but you leared to compensate, and aimed your first round a little down and to the right of where you want the majority of rounds to go.

The 9mm was just jumpy, uncomfortable and "jittery" for the lack of a technical term. The good thing was, we only had to qualify on the german rifle, and only familiarize with the MG and the SMG to earn the Schützenschnur (sp?).

Handguns were about the same experience, but I didn't put enough rounds down the Beretta to know for sure. The 9mm was an all around uncomfortabe shooter for me.
 
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itsbob

itsbob

I bowl overhand
AK-74me said:
Was explained in the "myth of energy transfer" article I posted earlier. Temporary cavity is not a factor in the wound process at handgun round speeds.



And in the video the dude sure seemed unscathed after getting shot by the .308 round, you can't tell me that the .308 would not of put a much larger indention in clay than a .45?? Seems clay really isn't a good indicator on how a human body will react when shot.
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That's misleading information.

IF he survived a .308 shot he had a lot more on than just a kevlar vest because, as you know, a kevlar vest can not stop a .308 round.

Now what he was wearing (I assume) was a ceramic plate that measures about 12" X 12" so now you're dissipating the energy across 144 Square Inches as compared to the "clay shots" energy being dissipated across the fraction of a square inch, the tip of a .45 or 9 mm round.

If I shot the .45 OR the 9mm into a ceramic plate enforced vest there would be little or NO visible damage in the clay from either round, but using the vest itslef the damage from the .45 is vastly superior over the 9, and the .308 would just be hole with kelvlar material being pulled through the wound cavity.

BUT it is obvious in the video that the .308 striking the trauma plate did take him off of his feet, even with the force of the hit being dissipated across the entire surface of the plate.
 
AK-74me

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
itsbob said:
That's misleading information.

IF he survived a .308 shot he had a lot more on than just a kevlar vest because, as you know, a kevlar vest can not stop a .308 round.

Now what he was wearing (I assume) was a ceramic plate that measures about 12" X 12" so now you're dissipating the energy across 144 Square Inches as compared to the "clay shots" energy being dissipated across the fraction of a square inch, the tip of a .45 or 9 mm round.

If I shot the .45 OR the 9mm into a ceramic plate enforced vest there would be little or NO visible damage in the clay from either round, but using the vest itslef the damage from the .45 is vastly superior over the 9, and the .308 would just be hole with kelvlar material being pulled through the wound cavity.

BUT it is obvious in the video that the .308 striking the trauma plate did take him off of his feet, even with the force of the hit being dissipated across the entire surface of the plate.
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Well just to quote you from earlier in the thread.

There are SEVERAL videos from Afghanistan and Iraq of people taking hits in the chest armor and getting knocked off of their feet. Yet the recoil from the gun (normally equivalent to a .308) are nominal.
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So I figured maybe you felt the same way about it with or without trama plate!

Obvious that the .308 took him off his feet? Did we watch the same video??

You said that the videos from the middle east of dudes getting shot in trama plates made them fall down, this dude stood on one foot to prove he was not leaning into it and it did not make him fly back. Yeah he put his foot down as if he would of done if someone came and gently pushed him back with their hand but that was about it. Def. not enough force to make you fall down, especially if standing with two feet down as your base.
 
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AK-74me

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
itsbob said:
This will get AK 74 going again, but in my expereience the .45 is more controllable and easier to stay on for the follow on shot..

Most of my experience between the two calibres was with SMG's and a less so with handguns.
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I find .45 and 9mm to be both relatively easy to control and almost equal in the recoil dept.

I don't know what ammo you were using in the MP5 but most the time +p and +p+ is preferred for them, so you may have been shooting some really hot 9mm out of it.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
AK-74me said:
I don't know what ammo you were using in the MP5 but most the time +p and +p+ is preferred for them, so you may have been shooting some really hot 9mm out of it.
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The one and only MP5 I have had the pleasure of firing was using just 115 grain fmj and was a pure joy to shoot. Very intuitive to get and keep on target. Even on full auto. Pie plate at 25 yards.

Spent some $ on ammo that day! :lol:
 
Pushrod

Pushrod

Patriot
AK-74me said:
I find .45 and 9mm to be both relatively easy to control and almost equal in the recoil dept.

I don't know what ammo you were using in the MP5 but most the time +p and +p+ is preferred for them, so you may have been shooting some really hot 9mm out of it.
Click to expand...

I find that the .40 has a much sharper kick than the .45, but not a harder kick. The 9 mm is just an easy all around round to shoot. I have handguns in all three calibers and they each have their pluses and minuses. I still prefer the .45 for my concealed carry weapon.
 
AK-74me

AK-74me

"Typical White Person"
Larry Gude said:
The one and only MP5 I have had the pleasure of firing was using just 115 grain fmj and was a pure joy to shoot. Very intuitive to get and keep on target. Even on full auto. Pie plate at 25 yards.

Spent some $ on ammo that day! :lol:
Click to expand...

Yup, I agree, awesome platform and great sights. I'd rather just have a SBR though, like an 11.5 inch barrel AR shooting rifle ammo rather than handgun ammo for 95% of the situations.
 
Bigpops92

Bigpops92

Active Member
Larry Gude said:
Damnedest thing. I had one of my cousins kids out to shoot. She's done the NRA handgun safety course, I believe, whatever that is. I am unfamiliar with it. And that's about it shooting handguns.

In any event, she's 19, typical size, weight, good athlete. So, my full size .45 shooting 230/fmj, not a problem in the world. Shooting full size 9mm baretta, constant stove pipes. I fiddled with her grip again and again and admonished her to stiffen up her dominate arm to no avail. Back to .45, no problems. Most people I take out who are first timers ALWAYS struggle with the .45 to be firm enough and rarely, if ever, the 9. Odd.

So, to me, unless one practices fairly regularly, I always say a .38 revolver, maybe a .357, is most idiot proof and reliable. No mags. No recoil issues. No safeties. Pretty intuitive to point and fire.

:buddies:
Click to expand...


I have seen this too, especially someone with a good stance and grip. The grip being one that fully encloses the grip with both palms, thumbs pointing forward. (hard to explain without pictures :lmao:)

Now...give me a person with the ol "tea cup" grip shooting a 45, and I will show you a recipe for stiches to the forehead! (ok, maybe not that bad)
 
appendixqh

appendixqh

Silence!!! I Kill You!!!
Bigpops92 said:
I have seen this too, especially someone with a good stance and grip. The grip being one that fully encloses the grip with both palms, thumbs pointing forward. (hard to explain without pictures :lmao:)

Now...give me a person with the ol "tea cup" grip shooting a 45, and I will show you a recipe for stiches to the forehead! (ok, maybe not that bad)
Click to expand...

Heres a pic of the grip I think you are talking about. This is a female shooter...9mm.
 

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