This Never Should Have Been Published

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Most powerful economy on the planet. Or, were. Most powerful military, ever. And we have to resort like behaving like what we claim to detest?

I'm never quite sure if you simply don't get it or don't want to. You honestly think we're some sort of handcuffed, pathetic nation that HAS to resort to behaving like what we claim to detest?? Really??? Or no?



behaving like what ?
I'll repeat myself, you would prefer 10,000 troops on the ground to deal with one terrorist leader ?
or an directional bomb in an exploding tire

or did you miss that part .... not 2000 lbs of C-4 in the back seat
a small directional explosive device



there is no morality in a knife fight in a dark alley - and that is what combating terrorists is
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
behaving like what ?
I'll repeat myself, you would prefer 10,000 troops on the ground to deal with one terrorist leader

I still don't know if you simply don't get it or are just dense. You're either/or argument is vapid. The most powerful nation in world history was not and is not limited to A or B. That we chose to not take other actions that would not only preclude 10,000 troops on the ground but, also the ugliness of acting like those we claim to be fighting.

So, really, that's all you can see American as being able to do, assassination OR boots on the ground??? Seriously?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
there is no morality in a knife fight in a dark alley - and that is what combating terrorists is

If you actually believed that, that we're just fighting 'terrorists' these little back alley creeps, then there is zero logic to your argument that the only alternative assassination OR 10,000 troops. If it is 'just' terrorists' even then, there are alternatives. LOTS of them when you're the most powerful nation in world history. Poor leadership or inability to gain the support for better ideas is no excuse to just go find another way. In fact, poor leadership and lack of popular support are THE reasons, in a free society, not act like that which we claim to despise.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
So you disapprove of this action?

Do I dissaprove of killing this terrorist POS?
NO
Do I dissaprove of drones?
No
I am only saying ---and pretty clearly I thought, that I see no difference between blowing up this a-hole and sending out drones.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
So, really, that's all you can see American as being able to do, assassination OR boots on the ground??? Seriously?




I sorry you wait decades hoping MAYBE some western ideals sink in countering Fundamental Islam
all then while Hezbollah / Hams is lobbing rockets in to Israel, Sunnis blow themselves up at bus stops, knife wielding loons attack citizens
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I sorry you wait decades hoping MAYBE some western ideals sink in countering Fundamental Islam
all then while Hezbollah / Hams is lobbing rockets in to Israel, Sunnis blow themselves up at bus stops, knife wielding loons attack citizens

And then, when we assassinate or invade, we hand them exactly what they must have to over come modernizing ideas. In case you've missed it, the last 13 years have lead to a massive increase in the support and involvement in fundamentalism and the violence it entails.

We did the same thing leading up to Hitler; moderate voices in Germany post WWI needed help and support from the West, in the wake of Versailles, liberalizing parts of it, loosening restrictions in order to tamp down the extremists. Britain and France played the purist, said no and what they were told would happen happened; the rise of folks like Hitler.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Do I dissaprove of killing this terrorist POS?
NO
Do I dissaprove of drones?
No
I am only saying ---and pretty clearly I thought, that I see no difference between blowing up this a-hole and sending out drones.


So, assassination, by the US, the land of due process, of the law, is OK? Drones, singling out 'targets', wherever, whenever, push button execution, that in keeping with our ideas and principles?
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
So, assassination, by the US, the land of due process, of the law, is OK? Drones, singling out 'targets', wherever, whenever, push button execution, that in keeping with our ideas and principles?



and you expect some 'moderate' Sunni to stick his neck out and say
- now you guys, quit lobbing rockets into Israel


have you really studied your enemy
... so called "Leader's" say one thing for WESTERN TV and a completely different thing for Al J
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
So, the answer is to arrest him and give him due process? Like a common criminal?

I don't see how you do that but, if that is the limit of your imagination, I guess you gotta go with the imagination you have.

ALL of these people are known by THEIR governments. The pressure that the most powerful nation on the planet can bring to bear FAR exceeds the nuisance of arrest and and due process.

When Ferdinand was murdered, Austria had a green light from the whole world, and at least acceptance by those friendly with Serbia, to make them pay, in spades. Had they gone in and punished Serbia, right then and there, for allowing the nationalist movement to reach the level of assassination, something ONLY the Serbs could have prevented, everyone would have been cool with it. The WHOLE world paid for Austrian indecision and uncertainty.

We had the exact same situation on 9/12/01 and proceeded to dick around and here we are 13 years later.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
and you expect some 'moderate' Sunni to stick his neck out and say
- now you guys, quit lobbing rockets into Israel
J

Are you high??? If that Sunni is gonna have to pay for it otherwise, then you're damn right he'll not only tell them to stop. He'll make them.

Order and civilization is achieved ONLY through policing your own. Anything else is called war.
 
Close.

We shouldn't be behaving like that which we say we despise.
To bad its not so black and white, Larry. If we relish peace and harmony and take the stance that the only way to live in a world who agrees is to lead by example then we, the peace loving, become extinct. It's how the natural order works regardless of species.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
I don't see how you do that but, if that is the limit of your imagination, I guess you gotta go with the imagination you have.

I am asking questions to figure out where you're going, and you equate that to a limited imagination. I don't know why I bother when you have to resort to the tactic of Midnight and Liberty. You're better than this............ so I thought.

I better quit now before I start posting 'stupid ####'.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
To bad its not so black and white, Larry. If we relish peace and harmony and take the stance that the only way to live in a world who agrees is to lead by example then we, the peace loving, become extinct. It's how the natural order works regardless of species.

War IS black and white.

"War is cruelty. There is no use in trying to reform it. The crueler it is the sooner it will be over." William T. Sherman.

In 2003 we were lead by a bunch of people I was sure understood and lived by that.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I am asking questions to figure out where you're going, and you equate that to a limited imagination. .

You;re a jazz player for gods sake!!! You're nothing if not imagination!!!! There is a whole host of ways the US could deal with 'terrorists' other than 10,000 pairs of boots OR becoming what we're fighting.

:tap:
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
I’d like to know specifically what you mean by “what we claim we detest”. What is it you are saying we detest in the context of this operation?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess he's drawing comparisons between suicide bombers and car bombers/ drone bombers. I'm sure I see a great deal of difference between the two either, but also I don't disagree with the results.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
When Ferdinand was murdered, Austria had a green light from the whole world, and at least acceptance by those friendly with Serbia, to make them pay, in spades. Had they gone in and punished Serbia, right then and there, for allowing the nationalist movement to reach the level of assassination, something ONLY the Serbs could have prevented, everyone would have been cool with it. The WHOLE world paid for Austrian indecision and uncertainty.


Serbia was hot bed of political troubles long before the assassination of the Arch Duke ..... coups, murder, Russia / Austria-Hungary - each taking sides ...


Serbia

Following the clashes between the Ottoman army and Serbs in Belgrade in 1862, and under pressure from the Great Powers, by 1867 the last Turkish soldiers left the Principality. By enacting a new constitution without consulting the Porte, Serbian diplomats confirmed the de facto independence of the country. In 1876, Serbia declared war on the Ottoman Empire, proclaiming its unification with Bosnia. The formal independence of the country was internationally recognized at the Congress of Berlin in 1878, which formally ended the Russo-Turkish War; this treaty, however, prohibited Serbia from uniting with Bosnia by placing the latter under Austro-Hungarian occupation, alongside the occupation of Raška (Sandžak).[45] From 1815 to 1903, the Principality of Serbia was ruled by the House of Obrenović, except from 1842 to 1858, when it was led by Prince Aleksandar Karađorđević. In 1882, Serbia became a Kingdom, ruled by King Milan I. In 1903, following the May Overthrow, the House of Karađorđević, descendants of the revolutionary leader Karađorđe Petrović, assumed power. The 1848 revolution in Austria lead to the establishment of the autonomous territory of Serbian Vojvodina. By 1849, the region was transformed into the Voivodeship of Serbia and Banat of Temeschwar.



May Coup (Serbia)

From the time Serbia was freed from Ottoman Turkish control following the Serbian Revolution in 1804–1835, it emerged as an independent principality, ruled by various factions surrounding the Obrenović and Karađordević dynasties. These, in turn, were sponsored by the rival Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires.[3] The Obrenović family was mostly pro-Austrian while their hereditary enemies, the Karađordević family, were mostly pro-Russian. Each dynasty was financially aided by their powerful foreign sponsors.


The Black Hand

The Black Hand was formed when ten men met on 9 May 1911 to form Ujedinjenje ili Smrt (Unification or Death), better known as the Black Hand.

By 1914, there were many hundred members, perhaps as many as 3500. Many members were Serbian army officers. The professed goal of the group was the creation of a Greater Serbia, by use of violence, if necessary. The Black Hand trained guerillas and saboteurs and planned political murders. The Black Hand was organized at the grassroots level in 3- to 5-member cells, supervised by district committees and by a Central committee in Belgrade whose ten-member Executive Committee was led, more or less, by Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijević (also known as Apis). To ensure secrecy, members rarely knew much more than the members of their own cell and one superior above them. New members swore "I (...), by entering into the society, do hereby swear by the Sun which shineth upon me, by the Earth which feedeth me, by God, by the blood of my forefathers, by my honour and by my life, that from this moment onward and until my death, I shall faithfully serve the task of this organisation and that I shall at all times be prepared to bear for it any sacrifice. I further swear by God, by my honour and by my life, that I shall unconditionally carry into effect all its orders and commands. I further swear by my God, by my honour and by my life, that I shall keep within myself all the secrets of this organisation and carry them with me into my grave. May God and my brothers in this organisation be my judges if at any time I should wittingly fail or break this oath."[9]

[clip]

Just prior to World War I, under the orders of the Chief of Serbian Military Intelligence, Serbian Military Officers and remnants of the by then moribund Black Hand organized and facilitated the assassination of Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria on occasion of his visit to Sarajevo, Bosnia. The Austro-Hungarian investigation of the assassination rounded up all but one of the assassins and also much of the underground railroad that had been used to transport the assassins and their weapons from Serbia to Sarajevo. Within two days following the assassination, Austria-Hungary and Germany advised Serbia that they should open an investigation, but Serbian Foreign Minister Gruic, speaking for Serbia replied, "Nothing had been done so far, and the matter did not concern the Serbian Government," after which "high words" were spoken on both sides. Entreaties by Germany asking Russia to intercede with Serbia were ignored. On 23 July Austria-Hungary delivered a toughly worded letter to Serbia with ten enumerated demands and additional demands in the preamble aimed at the destruction of the anti-Austrian terrorist and propaganda network in Serbia. Austria called attention to Serbia's March 1909 declaration committing to the Great Powers to respect Austria-Hungary's sovereignty over Bosnia-Herzegovina and committing Serbia to maintain good neighborly relations with Austria-Hungary. If the ten enumerated demands and demands in the preamble were not agreed to within 48 hours, Austria-Hungary would recall its ambassador from Serbia. The letter became known as the July Ultimatum. Serbia accepted all but one of the demands, to let the Austrian officers conduct an investigation on Serbian soil, which would have compromised its sovereignty. In response, Austria-Hungary recalled its ambassador.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess he's drawing comparisons between suicide bombers and car bombers/ drone bombers. I'm sure I see a great deal of difference between the two either, but also I don't disagree with the results.

We go into a sovereign nation, we execute someone, and talk of rule of law, due process, justice, whose gonna listen? The original point was that we, as usual, should have NO idea what our government is doing but, guess what? The nation we went into to do this knows. The people who are friends and family, they know.

The only people in the dark are...as usual...the American people. That way, when someone screams for "Rule of law! Due process! Justice!" we all, like Lemmings, just go along and get in line, used, manipulated, lied to, as usual and then go back to not understanding what is going on or why or everyone seems to get the joke except us.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Serbia was hot bed of political troubles long before the assassination of the Arch Duke ..... coups, murder, Russia / Austria-Hungary - each taking sides ...

Which I would think, supports the contention that they, Austria, should have just got on with it and it would have absolutely been OK with the world community.

:shrug:
 

FollowTheMoney

New Member
It's having the intended effect.

"Hey Scott", "Yeah Jim",
Jim- "You know that Psyop that we initiated that took forever to get approval from Langley?"
Scott- "You mean the one about releasing certain details about the take out in Damascus of Hezbollah’s Imad Mughniyah?"
Jim- "Yeah, that's the one."
Scott- "What about it?"
Jim- "Well, it's having the intended effect."
Scott- "Tell me more."
Jim- "We have not only taken the sheep's attention off matters of more importance, we have pitted them against each other."
Jim- "The media has propagated the story for us, and the social media is full of contrarian views on the matter."
Scott- "Do you think they will ever realize the true reason we had him taken out?
Jim- "Doesn't matter, if someone does, they will be immediately discredited as a conspiracy nut, deemed unpatriotic, and forgotten about."
Scott- "The people sure are easily tricked and swayed, aren't they? They make our job so easy. What's next on the list of things to do?
Jim- "Where are we now on the MH370 and Ebola Psyops?
 
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