Trump FAIL #1...

[Larry Gude]

You sitting at your keyboard preaching to educated and intelligent people, trying to pretend that you are so much smarter and more informed than they, makes you an arrogant ass. .

That I can read competing history books, observe and come up with reasoned conclusions doesn't make me smart let alone smarter. It means I do basic research and thinking.

What Winston did isn't a matter of conjecture. Same with Chamberlain. That I've explored these narratives past the mass consumption versions shouldn't be a sign of arrogance. It should be a sign of basic, run of the mill intelligence. People can debate motivation and intent, even when we have the principles written words, but not facts,

 

[Larry Gude]

It's STILL irrelevant.

I don't even know what to say about that.

 

[Larry Gude]

Now I've heard people explain that LINCOLN was a terrible President. I've heard LOTS of stuff explaining how awful Ghandi was for India.
Ditto Louis 14th. Mandela. I could go on. .

Argument can be had about details of all of these people, what was 'good' what was 'bad'. However, there is NO argument that in each case their legacy was of nations in ascendancy and expansion, NOT regression or decline. That part is un-debatable as is the fact that Churchills time in power is concurrent with the incredible decline and regression of the British Empire. We can debate his role, his intentions, the pluses and minus's but it is not up for debate that he over saw decline.

 

[vraiblonde]

reasoned

Yeah, FAIL.

 

[SamSpade]

I don't even know what to say about that.

Because the rest of us are talking about removing Churchill's BUST from the White House, and you keep discussing his value with respect to British history.

If the American people thought NIXON was the greatest thing since sliced bread, removing his bust from Downing Street WOULD BE an insult.
It doesn't matter if we are right or wrong, the insult matters.

You can fill this thread with a MILLION words - it won't change the fact that it pissed them off, right or wrong.

 

[Hijinx]

Not being a historian I am not competent to argue about whether or not Winston Churchill was responsible for the downsizing of the British Empire, but I might mention many of the colonies such as India pretty much left Churchill or not, and Australia became a nation of their own. England was pretty drained after the war monetarily. IMO I really don;t see how Churchill was the culprit.

 

[PsyOps]

That I can read competing history books...

Competing history books means you have to pick which side to believe. You consistently choose to take the side that this country is at fault with everything.

 

[Hijinx]

Competing history books means you have to pick which side to believe. You consistently choose to take the side that this country is at fault with everything.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

[Kyle]

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

...

 

[Larry Gude]

Competing history books means you have to pick which side to believe. You consistently choose to take the side that this country is at fault with everything.

Only a jazz player player could take an argument illustrating how Winston Churchill lead the British Empire to incredible decline and interpret it into a critique on the US.

 

[Larry Gude]

Because the rest of us are talking about removing Churchill's BUST from the White House, and you keep discussing his value with respect to British history.

If the American people thought NIXON was the greatest thing since sliced bread, removing his bust from Downing Street WOULD BE an insult.
It doesn't matter if we are right or wrong, the insult matters.

You can fill this thread with a MILLION words - it won't change the fact that it pissed them off, right or wrong.

That's fine, discuss anything you like. I started the thread and my point is that Winston is WAY over praised and most perfectly well educated and intelligent American's don't know how awful he was for the UK because they've accepted the pop culture version of him and I think it's important that any president NOT use such a self destructive world leader as motivation out of concern that in using him and what he did as motivation it would lead to similar results and there is NO better example of this than Dubbya who had him displayed and was a big fan of his. I'd hope Trump is wiser.

 

[PsyOps]

Only a jazz player player could take an argument illustrating how Winston Churchill lead the British Empire to incredible decline and interpret it into a critique on the US.

Allow me to expound on my comments... you routinely take the side of history that depicts the west (allies of this country) as being the reason for the globes problems. The decline of the British Empire was inevitable.

 

[Larry Gude]

Allow me to expound on my comments... you routinely take the side of history that depicts the west (allies of this country) as being the reason for the globes problems. The decline of the British Empire was inevitable.

The decline of America in inevitable by that standard. What I do, and I explain this each and every time, is try and argue by pointing out what I believe is wrong and why and how WE should avoid doing the same thing. Its correct to interpret me pointing out the things we do wrong as being a big reason for the globes problems. That said, the REASON for it is to STOP doing stupid ####. And the reason for my desire for us to STOP doing stupid #### is to postpone our decline as long as possible and perhaps to avoid it altogether.

A example, it IS our fault that WE overthrew a free and fair election in Iran in '53 (IIRC) and betrayed an entire people who looked upon us very favorably. We betrayed them. We just did. And we've had problems in the ME ever since. WE tossed away our credibility and trust. I don't claim to know what would have happened in Iran had we instead embraced them instead of betraying them but I DO know we'd have honored our principles. If we had problems it would not be because we betrayed them and ourselves.

In regards to Winston, it is simply a bad idea to worship a vicious, ugly little war lord of a human being as some paragon of Western ideals and virtues. It's even worse to do so without regard to his results. He's an arsonist who is praised for dealing, strongly, with a fire he VERY much helped start. He should be see as the war criminal he was. Not some hero. We can say war makes criminals of us all and that's fine but that doesn't mean we need to celebrate the worst of them.

Do you know that his most famous speech wasn't even him? He was a hard core alcoholic who was too drunk that evening, as most evenings, to read the thing.
Did you know about his anthrax plan? We didn't know about Dresden, and others, until well after the war.

In any event, it is PRO America, in my view, to argue for us not NOT make mistakes that are killing us and to damn sure try and avoid repeating them.

 

[GURPS]

A example, it IS our fault that WE overthrew a free and fair election in Iran in '53 (IIRC) and betrayed an entire people who looked upon us very favorably. We betrayed them. We just did. And we've had problems in the ME ever since. WE tossed away our credibility and trust. I don't claim to know what would have happened in Iran had we instead embraced them instead of betraying them but I DO know we'd have honored our principles. If we had problems it would not be because we betrayed them and ourselves.

yeah, however I don't think at this point in time, this is the sole reason Muslims hate the West is;

1) we betrayed Iran ....
2) Westerners are in the Middle East ....


Islams sole goal is to take over the World .... PERIOD

 

[PsyOps]

The decline of America in inevitable by that standard. What I do, and I explain this each and every time, is try and argue by pointing out what I believe is wrong and why and how WE should avoid doing the same thing. Its correct to interpret me pointing out the things we do wrong as being a big reason for the globes problems. That said, the REASON for it is to STOP doing stupid ####. And the reason for my desire for us to STOP doing stupid #### is to postpone our decline as long as possible and perhaps to avoid it altogether.

A example, it IS our fault that WE overthrew a free and fair election in Iran in '53 (IIRC) and betrayed an entire people who looked upon us very favorably. We betrayed them. We just did. And we've had problems in the ME ever since. WE tossed away our credibility and trust. I don't claim to know what would have happened in Iran had we instead embraced them instead of betraying them but I DO know we'd have honored our principles. If we had problems it would not be because we betrayed them and ourselves.

In regards to Winston, it is simply a bad idea to worship a vicious, ugly little war lord of a human being as some paragon of Western ideals and virtues. It's even worse to do so without regard to his results. He's an arsonist who is praised for dealing, strongly, with a fire he VERY much helped start. He should be see as the war criminal he was. Not some hero. We can say war makes criminals of us all and that's fine but that doesn't mean we need to celebrate the worst of them.

Do you know that his most famous speech wasn't even him? He was a hard core alcoholic who was too drunk that evening, as most evenings, to read the thing.
Did you know about his anthrax plan? We didn't know about Dresden, and others, until well after the war.

In any event, it is PRO America, in my view, to argue for us not NOT make mistakes that are killing us and to damn sure try and avoid repeating them.

I can’t comment much on Iran and our involvement in their elections. I’m also no going to comment on Churchill’s drinking since this was a prevalent problem with a lot of our leaders in those days.

Calling Churchill a ‘war lord’ is really unfair. His country was under attack by an evil tyrant. They were facing the same demise as France and Italy. And, I’m certain it was still quite fresh in Churchill’s mind that Germany used poison gas in WWI. Who are we to judge how he chooses to defend his own country? Just as we have nukes to defend our country if we are nuked. You love to spout off about winning, then question the means in which a country chooses to win. It’s what they felt necessary to win, in those days.

This is still the greatest country in the world. We have more good for this world than bad. I’m hardly ready to go on a pilgrimage to blame us and Britain for the world’s woes. Iran and the rest of the Mideast has to start taking responsibility for the carnage they are creating, and stop blaming us for their bad behavior.

 

[Larry Gude]

yeah, however I don't think at this point in time, this is the sole reason Muslims hate the West is;

1) we betrayed Iran ....
2) Westerners are in the Middle East ....


Islams sole goal is to take over the World .... PERIOD

You are why the neo cons really need not fear EVER being held accountable for the fatal road they've lead us down. You will make ANY excuse to justify what we've done. If you read what I wrote, you'll note I said Iran, the people. I made NO mention of Islam. We had an opportunity to help IRANIANS out of the chains of their faith. They were pro US, pro West. pro individual rights, all of that is fatal to Islam. If you want to argue our embrace of them over 60 years ago would NOT have lead to their modernization and Westernization, fine, but you can't fast forward to today and pretend how we got here simply doesn't matter as an excuse, THE excuse, to repeat those mistakes and expect better results.

 

[Larry Gude]

I can’t comment much on Iran and our involvement in their elections. I’m also no going to comment on Churchill’s drinking since this was a prevalent problem with a lot of our leaders in those days.

Calling Churchill a ‘war lord’ is really unfair. His country was under attack by an evil tyrant. They were facing the same demise as France and Italy. And, I’m certain it was still quite fresh in Churchill’s mind that Germany used poison gas in WWI. Who are we to judge how he chooses to defend his own country? Just as we have nukes to defend our country if we are nuked. You love to spout off about winning, then question the means in which a country chooses to win. It’s what they felt necessary to win, in those days.

This is non sense. Churchill wasn't a drinker 'of his day'. He was a DRUNK. Churchill's more vicious dictates, as I mentioned, including the Anthrax plot, were REJECTED by subordinates who knew how mad he was. Who are we to say, you ask? From the end of the battle of Britain on, England was no longer under any threat of invasion and they never were. Hitler begged them for peace. He wanted England to be as was. He STOPPED his men at Dunkirk so that they may escape as a gesture to STOP, we, (Germany) have no quarrel with you. It is propaganda to say England was ever under threat form invasion. Hitler could NOT have done it had he wanted to. The same lie holds that we'd be speaking German had we not got involved. Pure non sense.

Further, Russia defeated Germany. England played little more than a very minor role.

Don't you ever wonder how the world would be today had Britain and France protected their national interests and let Hitler go kill communism? Aren't you at least a little curious?

 

[black dog]

What an arrogant ass you are.

Yep, one would think that someone who believes they are so smart would have excelled in the business world and by now would be a Fortune 500 Plant Grower.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yep, one would think that someone who believes they are so smart would have excelled in the business world and by now would be a Fortune 500 Plant Grower.

Oh, good one. Here's mine; #### you. walk in my shoes, then judge me you stupid, pussy mother ####er. #### you. I don't judge ANYONE around here on anything but what they write.

#### you. Sincerely.

As I mentioned, and you couldn't be bothered, those thoughts are not mine. Those books are not mine. I CAN read. I CAN think. For myself.

Drone. #### you.

 

[SamSpade]

He STOPPED his men at Dunkirk so that they may escape as a gesture to STOP, we, (Germany) have no quarrel with you.

Well THAT *would* explain why they sank boats and shot down aircraft DURING the actual evacuation.