1 in 3 U.S. adults have 'debt in collections'

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
This report doesn't seem to indicate "real debt" vs. "credit bureau debt". Almost anyone can report you to the credit bureau(s) as being delinquent (doctor, dentist, lawyer, mechanic, etc.) with 0 proof of the debt. It then becomes your burden to have it removed from the file.

That!. Anyone and everyone can file a lien or bad report for "debts" they think they are owed. I had one collection action (and as someone who has been in business, several, for almost 30 years, I've been subject of many) that went on for a good 15 years before they finally desisted...it was a bogus claim against me for unpaid bills rung up by people who had taken over a business I had sold years before. You have to take anything you see that is "in collection" with a grain of salt..including tax liens.
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
I'm not surprised. In part many people who otherwise would never be in collections end up there due to medical providers who's 30+ day billing goes automatically to a collections department.

:yeahthat:

I know many folks who never even knew they had a bill until collections call. So I think the article is a bit misleading.
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
According to the IRS if a debt is canceled, forgiven or discharged, you must include the canceled amount in your gross income and pay taxes on that “income”. Creditors who forgive $600 or more are required to file Form 1099-C with the IRS, making that debt income for the consumer unless you qualify for an exclusion or exception (ie: insolvency or Title 11 bankruptcy etc).

QUOTE]

Good lord. That all makes my head hurt. :twitch: I think I'll just continue to always pay my bills. It seems so much easier. With the exception of the resentment and hostility I feel towards those who don't. :ohwell: Or maybe it is envy. I sometimes really do wish I could just walk away from all of my bills. Working sucks, bills suck, home ownership sucks. I want to be a teenager again where $100 was some pretty sweet money because it was mine, ALL mine. No such thing as a silly mortgage. Electric bill? What's that?

Anyway, somebody call me a waaaambulance. :drama:
 

DeeCee

A horse of course!
I was in a local Amish shop and the owner started talking about the various banks he had used. He was most impressed with a particular local bank because they actually pick his deposits up from his shop (a big deal to an Amish man driving a buggy into California!), then he talked about his 401K and other retirement accounts and his mortgage...and applying for CREDIT to buy another house....and he wondered why, when they ran his and his wife's credit report that HER credit score was higher than HIS :lmao:

Don't EVEN get me started on trying to get creditors and credit reporting agencies to accurately and consistently report stuff since all three send, receive, use and report data differently.....:burning:
 
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mamatutu

mama to two
Anyway, somebody call me a waaaambulance. :drama:

:lol: waaaambulance should be added to the list of exclusive forum words. That was great! Thanks for the laugh!

Oh, and yeah, I know how you feel. Bills and responsibilities seem never ending, sometimes.
 

LibertyBeacon

Unto dust we shall return
Well, for one, we've bailed out millionaires and everyone with a 401k as well as foreign governments and banks.
For two, we've bailed out the UAW.
For three, we've bailed out teachers and other government workers.
Right now, we're requiring some of us to buy a product while favored others get a pass.

And we've done it by taking the very money out of the economy that could have been earned to make those payments.

Would you sit there and watch your neighbors house burn if they caused it? Then, wait until it burned yours?
Did you ever wonder why PMI didn't cover all those mortgages?
If someone had a flat in the middle of the road or were broke down because they were negligent, would you just sit in the traffic jam or maybe, at some point, help them out if only to help yourself?

The world has lots of responsible people who, through no fault of their own, lose jobs, or get sick. Or have bad luck. Heck with them?
The world has lots of irresponsible people who make out all the time off of good people.
The world has lots of people in between.

In the mean time, the enormous debt out there is simply going into the banks servicing old business.
In the mean time, any new activity folks might spend that on, goes begging.

Sometimes, people are in situations, their own doings, someone elses fault, half and half, and it simply makes sense to declare bankruptcy to get rid of a debt you simply can't ever pay. Some times, it's better to help someone start over than to just slip under the waves, giving up because there is no hope.

My argument isn't for people like me who lost a house or have taken on more than they can handle as the economy soured. My argument is, if you think about it, for the betterment of everyone, including those wonderful, responsible souls who never miss a payment or only pay cash and stay within their nice little box at all times, risking little, if anything, and expecting less. People who very much benefited from when times were good for everybody.

Maybe the 'good' people's reward is that houses in their neighborhoods stop falling into foreclosure. Maybe their reward is a raise as the economy actually recovers. Maybe their sterling credit report means lower rights while us ne'er do wells have to pay higher rates. Maybe their reward is in a general recovery that stops the general decline in what is a country that belongs to us all.

Maybe we just do it because it is where the help is needed.

Or, we just keep doing what we're doing and hope for different results.

I agree with every word of it. I am 100% for it. The U.S. taxpayer lost the second the subsidized loans were made in the first place. A little more spilled fiat isn't going to hurt any more than it already has.

There is biblical reference to debt jubilees. This is not unprecedented in human history. Do it, learn our lessons, don't the same stupid chit again. <-- wishful thinking.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I agree with every word of it. I am 100% for it. The U.S. taxpayer lost the second the subsidized loans were made in the first place. A little more spilled fiat isn't going to hurt any more than it already has.

There is biblical reference to debt jubilees. This is not unprecedented in human history. Do it, learn our lessons, don't the same stupid chit again. <-- wishful thinking.

Psyops pointed that out one time some time ago when he and I were discussing this, the biblical precedent. Aside from that, it only makes sense assuming we want an actual recovery. It's one thing to carry a burden you can handle. It's quite another when there is no hope or reason to hope. I happen to have the ability and opportunity to make more money so, this isn't even about me. It's about the nation, the massive debt we carry and doing the right thing.

:buddies:
 

nutz

Well-Known Member
You can't make your business financially viable, then close it down and go do something else.

close it down, PAY YOUR DEBTS and then be happy doing something else. Yes, people also close businesses thinking that the suppliers don't really need to be paid.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
close it down, PAY YOUR DEBTS and then be happy doing something else. Yes, people also close businesses thinking that the suppliers don't really need to be paid.

It's happening. And, more and more, we'll just have a handful of companies. Won't that be great?
 

SG_Player1974

New Member
I remember that back when the bailouts were happening someone did a study and found that for all the money that was handed out, every US taxpayer could have gotten ~$50K! Now, what if that money would have been disbursed with the caveat that the money MUST be used first and foremost to repay ANY unsecured debts? The remaining amount could be used to "stimulate the economy"

Now, I know that there will be fools that would go out and buy a damn sports car, drugs, etc. however, think about all of the people that could have benefitted from paying off all their unsecured debts! One small downside would be the massive loss of revenue for credit card companies, loan officials, etc who would be missing out on those high interest payments!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I remember that back when the bailouts were happening someone did a study and found that for all the money that was handed out, every US taxpayer could have gotten ~$50K! Now, what if that money would have been disbursed with the caveat that the money MUST be used first and foremost to repay ANY unsecured debts? The remaining amount could be used to "stimulate the economy"

Your math is way off. More like $50k for 20 million people.

I wrote up a proposal whereby the lowest appraised 20 million owner occupied homes in the nation would have $50,000 placed in accounts to pay the mortgage only, for however long it lasted. If your mortgage was $1,000, it would last 50 months. If you sold the house in the first 10 years, you had to pay back the $50k out of it. If you stayed 11 years, you got to keep 10% of the $50,000, pay back the rest. If you stayed 20 years, you got to keep it all.

The point was to relived troubled assets, not troubled bankers. So, whatever you were trying to do in terms of paying your mortgage, that money, yours, would be saved or pay other bills or whatever but, at least then the trillion dollars would go into the economy and the banks could earn it bank instead of paying it into banks who would then just sit on it.

TARP is simply one of thee dumbest ideas ever IF the idea was to help the American people. It was great if the idea was to help banks and insurers.
 
Your math is way off. More like $50k for 20 million people.

I wrote up a proposal whereby the lowest appraised 20 million owner occupied homes in the nation would have $50,000 placed in accounts to pay the mortgage only, for however long it lasted. If your mortgage was $1,000, it would last 50 months. If you sold the house in the first 10 years, you had to pay back the $50k out of it. If you stayed 11 years, you got to keep 10% of the $50,000, pay back the rest. If you stayed 20 years, you got to keep it all.

The point was to relived troubled assets, not troubled bankers. So, whatever you were trying to do in terms of paying your mortgage, that money, yours, would be saved or pay other bills or whatever but, at least then the trillion dollars would go into the economy and the banks could earn it bank instead of paying it into banks who would then just sit on it.

TARP is simply one of thee dumbest ideas ever IF the idea was to help the American people. It was great if the idea was to help banks and insurers.

That would have cost taxpayers 20 to 50 times what TARP cost them, and that's including all of TARP not just the primary aspect of it which was meant to save the economy from imminent collapse. That primary aspect I'm referring to didn't, in the end, cost taxpayers money. It ended up being profitable - i.e., the banks which were used to get the liquidity into the system (because, e.g., they were the only feasible way to get the needed liquidity, and more to the point confidence, into the system quickly enough) ended up on-net paying for the privilege of being used to save everyone (including, to be sure, themselves with regard to some of them; but also most Americans for the same reasons and who needed saving, whether they realized what was coming or not, for much the same reasons - cascading counter-party defaults).

The aspect of TARP that actually cost taxpayer dollars is the aspect most similar to what you suggest - the program for writing off portions of certain people's mortgage debts. That's the part of TARP that other people paid for, that's the particularized bailout aspect of the situation - the part meant to help particular entities and which cost other taxpayers money. (TARP cost us all in other ways, I hope I don't need to qualify what I'm saying by reiterating that I think TARP was a mistake and I'd have preferred we gone a different way.) The auto bailouts also cost taxpayer's money (not even considering the somewhat fishy tax loss carryover aspect of them), but that amount was largely offset by the profits from the bank bailout aspect of TARP such that the total losses from TARP are roughly the same as the total losses from the mortgage relief aspects of TARP. Further, the AIG bailout probably cost us money, but that loss was more that absorbed by the bank bailout profits.

All of that aside, what you suggest - while costing us an order or two of magnitude more than TARP did, and infinitely more than the bank bailouts did - would not have fixed the problem. What was needed was immediate liquidity (in reality, the confidence creating assurance that such liquidity would be provided to the extent needed), injected centrally into the system such that it got the blood flowing again - or prevented it from stopping altogether - throughout the system. Making some money available to millions of tiny capillaries, hoping that enough of that money would find itself flowing into and through the system at large quickly enough to make a difference - to prevent the effective seize up of the system - wouldn't have accomplished what was needed. It would have been a nonsensical way of dealing with the immediate problem that was faced.

This was about acute systemic, self-perpetuating, insolvency - money flow, which is the lifeblood of a modern economy, was seizing up. Right then, not in a month or a year. It wasn't about substantive economic losses (those existed, but they weren't the problem that was being faced - it wasn't that certain big banks were going to suffer major profit declines or losses; they did so but that wasn't what jeopardized the entire system and what the bailout was meant to fix). It was about people and entities stopping handing money from one to another, a dynamic that fear perpetuates - sometimes quickly to the point of causing a catastrophe. And in our system, when money stops being passed from one party to another it effectively ceases to exist - at least, that portion of it (which is huge as compared to, say, the base) which really only exists by virtue of it being passed from one party to another and thus, for practice purposes, appears to be in several places at the same time. That's really how money is created, it is loaned into existence - it is transactional. Without the transactions, without activity - to include the daily process of paying back what is promised - the money disappears. Individual people don't move enough money around quickly enough such that putting money directly into their hands can quickly recreate the needed flow, the needed transactional money, the needed liquidity. They aren't connected to enough parties as directly as the big banks are. That's why the liquidity injections had to be done through the banks - central lines, not capillary taps.

And, at any rate, we couldn't just do what you're suggesting with the money instead of what we did do - one is spending the money, giving it away; the other is loaning or investing it, getting it back for the most part. We could still do what you're suggesting, it would just have a real price tag and - I think - exacerbate the big picture problem that both you and I see with programs such as TARP. We make failure, we make mistakes less painful and thus encourage it - we encourage reckless behavior and make parties less accountable, individually, for it. It's what you've described before - privatized gains with socialized losses. Those people got the benefits of their recklessness (or miscalculations) and society is asked to bear the cost of them. Better to let individual parties suffer the consequences (as well as reap the rewards) of their actions and re-build a society on that prosperity-facilitating bedrock, on that concept. Now, we likely aren't going to meaningfully get back to that. But what you suggest is a further step in the wrong direction. It isn't wiping the slate clean and starting over, it's reiterating the paradigm an reinforcing the mindset that is in large part causing the problem.
 
I remember that back when the bailouts were happening someone did a study and found that for all the money that was handed out, every US taxpayer could have gotten ~$50K! Now, what if that money would have been disbursed with the caveat that the money MUST be used first and foremost to repay ANY unsecured debts? The remaining amount could be used to "stimulate the economy"

Now, I know that there will be fools that would go out and buy a damn sports car, drugs, etc. however, think about all of the people that could have benefitted from paying off all their unsecured debts! One small downside would be the massive loss of revenue for credit card companies, loan officials, etc who would be missing out on those high interest payments!

For one thing, the math was way off (and I read assertions that were even worse, higher than 50k). The total amount of money distributed under TARP was closer to $1,200 or $1,300 per American or a few thousand per taxpayer. More importantly though, that money wasn't spent - it wasn't given out and not repaid to the taxpayer as would be the case with what you're suggesting. The total spent under TARP - the cost of it - was an order of magnitude less. It was more like a couple hundred dollars per taxpayer.
 
GM got bailed out, why not the little guy

GM didn't get bailed out. GM went bankrupt. The owners of GM lost pretty much everything, as they should have. Even a large portion of GM's creditors got heavily screwed, they weren't bailed out.

The UAW got bailed out.
 
That's the main point.

I get that, and it's a point on which we've long agreed and which we've discussed many times.

I was responding to the idea of doing more bad stuff (even worse stuff I'd argue, for practical as well as principled reasons, than the initial TARP stuff).
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I get that, and it's a point on which we've long agreed and which we've discussed many times.

I was responding to the idea of doing more bad stuff (even worse stuff I'd argue, for practical as well as principled reasons, than the initial TARP stuff).

I get that and it's a point we've long agreed upon; you know the details FAR better than I. :buddies:

However, that said, and following on the agreement, TARP was a mistake, it is precisely the things you know more about, the very real threats, the liquidity issues, the leverage and so forth, the daily paper stuff, all of that, I would think we agree, even if I don't know the details, are the guts of the very frailty of the system, a system that requires stability and consistency to stay in balance and not come apart that was, because of politics and greed, very much subjected to non stop plans and decisions that may as well have been designed to throw it out of balance and simply hope that declaring it safe would make it so.

THAT is the stuff I wanted TARP to fix. The stuff Dodd/Frank, as I understand it, made more deeply entrenched. My ideas of throwing a trillion into troubled assets (peoples homes) to me, would have been a very worthy use of federal power to cool the problem WHILE they fixed the cancers in the system.

:buddies:
 
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