10 Years Ago Today

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Thank you...

Bustem' Down said:
A dummy missle could not do it. Impossible.


...I'll quote you at the next Conspiracy meeting.

Menaing could not physically hit the plane and cause a fuel tank rupture?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I don't want to know...

MMDad said:
Well, I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.



Seriously, everything I know is available online. I just learned it way back when, and I am not authorized to divulge what I did learn.

That's another thing to consider when you hear things from an "inside source": are they telling you things they shouldn't? Doesn't that completely destroy their credibility?

...that bad.

I'm not looking at this from any 'insider' this or that. In fact, the one 'insider' story I've heard, I mentioned early on, that they say it was as advertised.

Only one or two people or even a small handful claim to have seen or heard anything contrary to the facts as we're given in regards to JFK. Over 100 people, minding their own business, fishing, boating, whatever, said they saw something going UP.

It's more fishy than your normal story.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Larry Gude said:
...I'll quote you at the next Conspiracy meeting.

Menaing could not physically hit the plane and cause a fuel tank rupture?
Meaning it does not have the mass to destroy a target of that size. Even at that velocity. I've seen them hit missles, which are considerably smaller, and there were not completely destroyed.

Also, if it was a ship on pre-deployment workups, they would not have had dummy missles, the ship would only have live missles. "Dummy" missles are not just bags of sand, they have electronics to record the flight, so there would have been civilians on board also. Additionally, the Standard Missile is not a fire and forget weapon, it's guided in all the way by the ship so there is no way you could fire a missle and it goes after the wrong target.
 

bcp

In My Opinion
Larry Gude said:
They were told that they simply don't understand how explosions look at night, that things blow up and then LOOK like the fiery debris is flying back UP to the explosion, like on 4th of July.

just for shits and giggles lets play this one out.

the fuel tank ruptures send thousands of pounds of fuel to the ground in a stream.
something causes the fuel to ignite at the lower level
the flame rushes back up the stream and finds the now almost empty tank.
the resulting explosion takes out the plane and brings it down.

at night to those looking, the fuel going down was not visable, but when the flame went back up it was clear.
it looked like something went from the ground to the plane and caused the explosion.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
bcp said:
just for ####s and giggles lets play this one out.

the fuel tank ruptures send thousands of pounds of fuel to the ground in a stream.
something causes the fuel to ignite at the lower level
the flame rushes back up the stream and finds the now almost empty tank.
the resulting explosion takes out the plane and brings it down.

at night to those looking, the fuel going down was not visable, but when the flame went back up it was clear.
it looked like something went from the ground to the plane and caused the explosion.
That one sounds like fun, but the simplest answer is usually the correct answer and a mechanical/electrical failure on the aircraft is the simplest.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Just wanted to make a few more points:

1. The center fuel tank issue isn't solely one associated with the 747. The P-3s that I flew on also have a center fuel tank that's rarely ever used except on flights over the Pacific. NATOPS safety requirements are that at least 1,000 pounds of fuel must be kept in the tank during any flight to ensure cooling of the lines running through it. That's been the case since I started flying back in 1979, and I would guess for as long as the plane has been in service.

2. As has been noted, most SAMs have a proximity sensor that is used to set off the warhead so they don't actually make contact with the aircraft. Some of the theories I have heard include the missile passing though the aircraft and not detonating, but caussing fumes in the center fuel tank to detonate, which again shows a misunderstanding of how these missiles work. A SAM is not a smart bomb that can track a laser to a particular spot on a target. Airplanes are a lot more manueverable than a building or a staionary tank, so they are designed to get close, several hundred feet or more, then detonate and put a shower of fragments into the flight path of the aircraft. Even the best radar-guided missile at the time could not be targeted to actually strike an aircraft.

3. As for Larry's "dummy" missile, I've never heard of a dummy SAM. We had dummy Harpoon and Bullpup missiles, but they couldn't fly and were only used for training people how to load them on the aircraft. I saw dummy Sea Sparrow SAMs on the USS Saratoga, but they were the same way... just empty shapes that could be used to practice loading procedures. To the best of my knowledge no Navy ships have fully-functional "dummy" missiles that just don't have a warhead.

4. I find it pretty incredible that of all the people who were out on the water at that hour, or just out gazing at the water at that time, that over 100 people happened to be looking at the exact right spot to see what would be a barely noticeable spot of light going up. When we accidentally launched a Trident II missile near Bermuda in the 1980s only a scant handful of people actually saw it go up and that was an island full of people with a close-up view of a huge rocket going up. Most of the witnesses were people who had heard about it but not actually seen it. So over 100 people, all looking at the exact right spot, to see a rocket motor on a SAM? I don't think so. I think there's just a lot of imagination going on there.

5. As for the alledged radar track of something flying towards the plane, that's pretty bogus too. Missiles are tiny and more very, very fast. Even the advanced radars on our fighter planes can't track them reliably and pilots still have to watch for the smoke trail of a missile to tell what it's doing. A radar used to track something as small as a SAM is a highly specialized set, and not the kind of radar that is used to track relatively slow aircraft from the airport. Also, when reading the theories, I keep seeing "reports of..." , "stories about...", etc., and that usually means that there never was an actual report of a radar track, only that there was something that appeared on the radar that was investigated. I spent many hours in the air looking at radar scopes and there's always a lot of crap that appears and disappears on the scope. I wouldn't be surprised at all that there was some transient crap that showed up on the radar tapes that was quickly shown to be just crap, but "un-named sources" have played up into an actual missile track over the years.

6. Lastly, when I stated that the plane blew up catastrophically I did not mean to imply that the plane just shattered. What I was getting at is that unless a missile shot is extremely lucky, and takes out the flight crew (which the evidence shows did not happen in this case) a hit from a SAM is going to give the crew plenty of time to declare and emergency. The fact that the crew did not get that chance shows that the damage waqs catastrophic and immediate, and that's just not what a SAM is capable of.

The conspiracy theorists need to learn the difference between the words "possible" and "probable."

I think that if someone wants to point a finger at Al Quada they should look at the crash of Egypt Air 990 in 2000. I still believe that this crash was a test case for Al Quada to see if they could get a guy to willingly kill hundreds by committing suicide with a jetliner. Up until that point it was nice theory, but not one that had actually been tried out, and I can't imagine Al Quada wanting to undertake such a large operation without first making sure it could be done. It was just over a month after the 767 crashed as the relief first officer calmly repeated "I trust in God" 11 times, that Mohammed Atta showed up in Germany to start getting his plot organized, so I firmly believe that Al Quada put the Egypt Air relief first officer up to crashing the plane, and when that went well they green-lighted Atta's operation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Bruzilla said:
3. As for Larry's "dummy" missile, I've never heard of a dummy SAM. We had dummy Harpoon and Bullpup missiles, but they couldn't fly and were only used for training people how to load them on the aircraft. I saw dummy Sea Sparrow SAMs on the USS Saratoga, but they were the same way... just empty shapes that could be used to practice loading procedures. To the best of my knowledge no Navy ships have fully-functional "dummy" missiles that just don't have a warhead.
Your wrong on that one. We regularly us SM-2's that have no warhead for testing.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Bustem' Down said:
Your wrong on that one. We regularly us SM-2's that have no warhead for testing.

Yes, but you don't normally have those missiles in the magazine do you? We had test missiles also, but those were brought out to us before the test and any unfired missiles were returned after the tests so they weren't readilly available like the dummy missiles are.
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
I don't know the whole story or anything I mean I was too young to have a real interest in news back then. All I've got to say on the subject is that there was physical evidence that the plane was shot down.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Bruzilla said:
Just wanted to make a few more points:

1. The center fuel tank issue isn't solely one associated with the 747. The P-3s that I flew on also have a center fuel tank that's rarely ever used except on flights over the Pacific. NATOPS safety requirements are that at least 1,000 pounds of fuel must be kept in the tank during any flight to ensure cooling of the lines running through it. That's been the case since I started flying back in 1979, and I would guess for as long as the plane has been in service.

2. As has been noted, most SAMs have a proximity sensor that is used to set off the warhead so they don't actually make contact with the aircraft. Some of the theories I have heard include the missile passing though the aircraft and not detonating, but caussing fumes in the center fuel tank to detonate, which again shows a misunderstanding of how these missiles work. A SAM is not a smart bomb that can track a laser to a particular spot on a target. Airplanes are a lot more manueverable than a building or a staionary tank, so they are designed to get close, several hundred feet or more, then detonate and put a shower of fragments into the flight path of the aircraft. Even the best radar-guided missile at the time could not be targeted to actually strike an aircraft.
Not the Stinger which has fusing for Penetration, Impact, or Self-destruct. How many of these were left in Afghanistan when we pulled our support from there?

3. As for Larry's "dummy" missile, I've never heard of a dummy SAM. We had dummy Harpoon and Bullpup missiles, but they couldn't fly and were only used for training people how to load them on the aircraft. I saw dummy Sea Sparrow SAMs on the USS Saratoga, but they were the same way... just empty shapes that could be used to practice loading procedures. To the best of my knowledge no Navy ships have fully-functional "dummy" missiles that just don't have a warhead.

4. I find it pretty incredible that of all the people who were out on the water at that hour, or just out gazing at the water at that time, that over 100 people happened to be looking at the exact right spot to see what would be a barely noticeable spot of light going up. When we accidentally launched a Trident II missile near Bermuda in the 1980s only a scant handful of people actually saw it go up and that was an island full of people with a close-up view of a huge rocket going up. Most of the witnesses were people who had heard about it but not actually seen it. So over 100 people, all looking at the exact right spot, to see a rocket motor on a SAM? I don't think so. I think there's just a lot of imagination going on there.
This wasn’t Bermuda; it was right off of Long Island, there were probably thousands of potential witnesses of which 200+ saw the event, nothing unusal about that. Read the descriptions of some and it would have been obvious as to why it was seen. And those that did see it were on land, on sea, and in the air and their accounts triangulated back to launch locations.


5. As for the alledged radar track of something flying towards the plane, that's pretty bogus too. Missiles are tiny and more very, very fast. Even the advanced radars on our fighter planes can't track them reliably and pilots still have to watch for the smoke trail of a missile to tell what it's doing. A radar used to track something as small as a SAM is a highly specialized set, and not the kind of radar that is used to track relatively slow aircraft from the airport. Also, when reading the theories, I keep seeing "reports of..." , "stories about...", etc., and that usually means that there never was an actual report of a radar track, only that there was something that appeared on the radar that was investigated. I spent many hours in the air looking at radar scopes and there's always a lot of crap that appears and disappears on the scope. I wouldn't be surprised at all that there was some transient crap that showed up on the radar tapes that was quickly shown to be just crap, but "un-named sources" have played up into an actual missile track over the years.
I have spent many years looking at radar scopes (30+ years) and I have seen and tracked missiles. And it isn’t an un-named source it is a seasoned aircraft accident investigator that put most of this together. Not a pilot, not a reporter, but an aircraft accident investigator, one of the few persons with the right skills and experience to do the job.


6. Lastly, when I stated that the plane blew up catastrophically I did not mean to imply that the plane just shattered. What I was getting at is that unless a missile shot is extremely lucky, and takes out the flight crew (which the evidence shows did not happen in this case) a hit from a SAM is going to give the crew plenty of time to declare and emergency. The fact that the crew did not get that chance shows that the damage waqs catastrophic and immediate, and that's just not what a SAM is capable of.
There is evidence of the debris field validated by position recordings as the material was recovered along with radar data showing the dispersal pattern that night. Also a heat-seeker when challenged with multiple heat sources will go for the center, right? And this is where there are also the A/C units on the 747 which generate a lot of heat too, so the likely impact point would be at the center fuel tank.



The conspiracy theorists need to learn the difference between the words "possible" and "probable."

I think that if someone wants to point a finger at Al Quada they should look at the crash of Egypt Air 990 in 2000. I still believe that this crash was a test case for Al Quada to see if they could get a guy to willingly kill hundreds by committing suicide with a jetliner. Up until that point it was nice theory, but not one that had actually been tried out, and I can't imagine Al Quada wanting to undertake such a large operation without first making sure it could be done. It was just over a month after the 767 crashed as the relief first officer calmly repeated "I trust in God" 11 times, that Mohammed Atta showed up in Germany to start getting his plot organized, so I firmly believe that Al Quada put the Egypt Air relief first officer up to crashing the plane, and when that went well they green-lighted Atta's operation.
What none of you have done is explain why the FBI led the investigation for 16 months before saying there was nothing to it. How much smoke needs to come from the barrel of the "smoking gun" before it is obvious? What would have happened had say the FBI came right out and said it was a missile attack? Remember this was just weeks before the Olympics were to kick off and just months before a Presidential election. Was there a reason why it would be covered up? What would it have done to confidence in air travel?
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
Ken King said:
What none of you have done is explain why the FBI led the investigation for 16 months before saying there was nothing to it.

When there is a bad car crash, the police investigate fully. After that, the NTSB may get involved. Same thing here. Possible crime scene, FBI investigates. Nothing suspicious about that.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
MMDad said:
When there is a bad car crash, the police investigate fully. After that, the NTSB may get involved. Same thing here. Possible crime scene, FBI investigates. Nothing suspicious about that.
For 16 months, yeah right. Name one other aviation accident were this has been the case.
 

donbarzini

Well-Known Member
bcp said:
just for ####s and giggles lets play this one out.

the fuel tank ruptures send thousands of pounds of fuel to the ground in a stream.
something causes the fuel to ignite at the lower level
the flame rushes back up the stream and finds the now almost empty tank.
the resulting explosion takes out the plane and brings it down.

at night to those looking, the fuel going down was not visable, but when the flame went back up it was clear.
it looked like something went from the ground to the plane and caused the explosion.

You've been reading Nelson DeMille, haven't you?
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ken... are you really going to sit there and say that a Stinger missile would be capable of bringing down a 747 in the manner that TWA 800 came down? I would grant you that a Stinger could take out an engine, maybe even two, and severly damage a wing, but a Stinger is NOT going to strike a non-manuevering aircraft between the wings. I will also grant you that you can set fuzing to impact, but why would you? The optimal way to bring down an aircraft is to shred the wing or control surfaces, so why would you set your missile to the least effective fuze? That makes no sense.

Bermuda has a much denser shoreline population than Long Island, and there is no way in Hell there were more people with a view of the ocean that particular night on Long Island than there were that night on Bermuda. Be that as it may, there is no way you'll get me to believe that there were hundreds of people who just all happened to be all looking out at that one spot of the ocean, at just the right time, and who all saw the same thing. That just doesn't happen. I would concede your point if there had been some event going on and people were all looking in that direction, but having all these people looking in the exact right spot at the exact right time for a period of seconds by chance is just impossible to believe.

I'm not saying that you can't track missiles on radar, but you can't track them on the type of radar that was tracking the aircraft at the time. Also, if the missile were fired from a boat and went straight up as your "witnesses" claim, there would be very little doppler or track showing on the radar. Lastly, the Stinger and the SA-7 are little bigger than a baseball bat and don't reflect radar well to begin with. So unless the missile was a much larger radar-guided missile, with a fairly long track, there's no way that an air traffic control radar is going to pick it up. And since there were no missile tracking radars, or pieces of missile found, there's no way some larger radar-guided missile was used.

There's no way that a missile is going to mistake an EDC or AC unit for an engine exhaust... what a reach! No two engines on any aircraft burn at the same EGT. One engine is always going to be the hottest, and unless the engines are side by side (like on a fighter) the missile would track in on the hottest engine.

Your arguments are all based on conflicting possibilities. You would be 100% right if:

A: A missile was used that had been set to the least-effective operating mode.
B: For some inexplicable reason over 200 people with a potential view of the tiny exhaust flare of a missile were all looking at the same place, at the same time, for no reason whatsoever.
C: The radar at JFK was some kind of one-of-a-kind airport air search radar that is somehow able to detect and track a 5ft-long missile going almost straight up with little doppler.
D. And the missile that you for whatever reason set to penetrate got confused between an engine with an EGT of over 400 degrees with an A/C vent putting out air at about 1/4 of that temperature.

I think you would be better off making a case for Elvis's spaceship accidentally striking the plane while he was on a hop to Vegas.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Bruzilla said:
Ken... are you really going to sit there and say that a Stinger missile would be capable of bringing down a 747 in the manner that TWA 800 came down? I would grant you that a Stinger could take out an engine, maybe even two, and severly damage a wing, but a Stinger is NOT going to strike a non-manuevering aircraft between the wings. I will also grant you that you can set fuzing to impact, but why would you? The optimal way to bring down an aircraft is to shred the wing or control surfaces, so why would you set your missile to the least effective fuze? That makes no sense.
Yes, I think a Stinger could bring a 747 down in the manner described. With 4 high heat sources and then the hot underbelly of the 747 a likely impact point would be the underbelly where the partially filled tank is also located. An impact explosion there would have the exact results seen.

Bermuda has a much denser shoreline population than Long Island, and there is no way in Hell there were more people with a view of the ocean that particular night on Long Island than there were that night on Bermuda. Be that as it may, there is no way you'll get me to believe that there were hundreds of people who just all happened to be all looking out at that one spot of the ocean, at just the right time, and who all saw the same thing. That just doesn't happen. I would concede your point if there had been some event going on and people were all looking in that direction, but having all these people looking in the exact right spot at the exact right time for a period of seconds by chance is just impossible to believe.
The population of Bermuda is 65,773 compared to the population of Nassau County, which is 1.4 million. Hmm, which of these would more likely provide a greater number of witnesses to what was described as a missile streaking to an altitude of 13,000 feet or more?

I'm not saying that you can't track missiles on radar, but you can't track them on the type of radar that was tracking the aircraft at the time. Also, if the missile were fired from a boat and went straight up as your "witnesses" claim, there would be very little doppler or track showing on the radar. Lastly, the Stinger and the SA-7 are little bigger than a baseball bat and don't reflect radar well to begin with. So unless the missile was a much larger radar-guided missile, with a fairly long track, there's no way that an air traffic control radar is going to pick it up. And since there were no missile tracking radars, or pieces of missile found, there's no way some larger radar-guided missile was used.
Sure you can, if you know what you are looking for and on these type radars the Doppler effect isn’t the detection mode, it is pulse timed, so as long as there is minimal phase shift to process through the MTI receiver then the target will be detectable.

The Islip radar is sufficient to track a Stinger; they can track flocks of birds that are arguably less reflective then any manmade object. But the “anomaly” showed on Islip, HPN, and JFK radars. Three sources showing very much the same thing, what are the odds that it wasn’t a reflective target?

And what do we know was found during the recovery operations as it was headed by the FBI and not the NTSB? Why did the FBI contract scallop dredgers to scrape the ocean bottom in the vicinity of the predicted shot locations?

There's no way that a missile is going to mistake an EDC or AC unit for an engine exhaust... what a reach! No two engines on any aircraft burn at the same EGT. One engine is always going to be the hottest, and unless the engines are side by side (like on a fighter) the missile would track in on the hottest engine.
Who said anything about mistaken targeting by the missile, are you not aware that when a Stinger is locked on to a target with multiple heat sources it tracks to the mid-point of those sources? Where would the mid point be on a 747? Hmm, between the heat sources is the fuselage.

Your arguments are all based on conflicting possibilities. You would be 100% right if:

A: A missile was used that had been set to the least-effective operating mode.
B: For some inexplicable reason over 200 people with a potential view of the tiny exhaust flare of a missile were all looking at the same place, at the same time, for no reason whatsoever.
C: The radar at JFK was some kind of one-of-a-kind airport air search radar that is somehow able to detect and track a 5ft-long missile going almost straight up with little doppler.
D. And the missile that you for whatever reason set to penetrate got confused between an engine with an EGT of over 400 degrees with an A/C vent putting out air at about 1/4 of that temperature.
No, my arguments are all based on the collection of observations and experience of a seasoned aircraft accident investigator to which I concur. A person that knows considerably more about more aspects of this event then either you or I could ever hope to know. Couple that with the eye-witnesses accounts and my experience as to radars and what is or isn’t detectable and his scenario rings truer then the spark in the fuel tank story we were sold after the FBI ran the investigation for 16 months and then quietly stepped aside.

And my radar experience is a combination of over 30 years with NORAD systems, long-range surveillance radars, airborne warning and control systems, airport surveillance radars, target-tracking radars (as in anti-aircraft systems), and instrumentation radars to include signal processing theory and operation and electronic warfare counter-countermeasures operations.

I think you would be better off making a case for Elvis's spaceship accidentally striking the plane while he was on a hop to Vegas.
I think you should stick your head back in the sand (or wherever it is you have it stuffed) if you think that terrorists cannot take down an airliner with a Stinger. You bought into the cover-up and are willing to be duped.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
If we're gonna #### and giggle...

bcp said:
just for ####s and giggles lets play this one out.

the fuel tank ruptures send thousands of pounds of fuel to the ground in a stream.
something causes the fuel to ignite at the lower level
the flame rushes back up the stream and finds the now almost empty tank.
the resulting explosion takes out the plane and brings it down.

at night to those looking, the fuel going down was not visable, but when the flame went back up it was clear.
it looked like something went from the ground to the plane and caused the explosion.

...let's at least play the game as we agree it exists.

We're told the center tank was empty, right?

Also, from what I have read, people's stories were the same; an object was going up, changed direction and then the explosion.

If a wire can cause the tank to explode then, certainly, a missile, even a dummy, could pierce the wing and cause enough of a spark to cause an explosion in a vapor rich environment, yes?

Also, if the center fuel tank, which is in the wing, blew up, why did the fuselage from the wings forward fall off first? Wouldn't the wing roots at the fuselage go at the same time?
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Radar...

...SAM's, heat signatures, triangulation, reflection, flocks of birds, FBI, NTSB...

Anyone want to help a brother out? If the fuel tank that is said to have blown up is THE cause of the plane falling apart, how come the story says the front of the plane, forward of the wing, fell off, the plane rose (which would require a wing, yes?) and THEN the wing tank blew up. Right?

I mean, if the tank is IN the wing and it was full of vapor and was ignited by an electrical spark, then the tank, which was confining the vapor, would be the first thing to go, yes? Given where the tank is;


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/WINGBOX/magic.html


...it just seems to this layman that the wings would have had to fail and that the fuselage would have been more likely to stay together, not come apart first.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
Ken King said:
This wasn’t Bermuda; it was right off of Long Island, there were probably thousands of potential witnesses of which 200+ saw the event, nothing unusal about that. Read the descriptions of some and it would have been obvious as to why it was seen. And those that did see it were on land, on sea, and in the air and their accounts triangulated back to launch locations.

258 people saw the streak of light. 38 said it was vertical. 45 said it went east, 23 reported it went west, 18 said it went south, and 4 said it went north. The reast didn't give directions. I don't understand how you can say it triangulated back to any point if it was travelling five directions at once.

If you read the FBI interviews, it is obvious that the FBI was trying to prove that a missile was involved, but they couldn't. The investigators were working under the assumption that it was a missile. That's why this went on for 16 months: the data was not there.
 

MMDad

Lem Putt
Ken King said:
Yes, I think a Stinger could bring a 747 down in the manner described. With 4 high heat sources and then the hot underbelly of the 747 a likely impact point would be the underbelly where the partially filled tank is also located. An impact explosion there would have the exact results seen.

.
The NAWC-WD report concluded the following:
No conclusive evidence of missile impacts exists on any of the recovered wreckage of TWA flight 800. No evidence of high-velocity fragment impacts exists, which indicates a live warhead did not detonate within or near the exterior of the aircraft....The possibility that a shoulder-launched missile was launched at TWA flight 800, failed to intercept it, self-destructed in close proximity and initiated the breakup of the aircraft is highly improbable.
I guess NAWC-WD is in on the conspiracy?
 
Top