A "Well Regulated Militia" .....

TheLibertonian

New Member
Well Regulated meant routine training with arms as a cohesive force , not rules and regulations

How they are trained is regulated by the states, GURPS. That's why maryland is the Old Line State. Because our state legislature (or at the time revolutionary legislature I suppose) set down fairly strict training requirements in our militias and things like uniforms and quality of equipment.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
How they are trained is regulated by the states, GURPS. That's why maryland is the Old Line State. Because our state legislature (or at the time revolutionary legislature I suppose) set down fairly strict training requirements in our militias and things like uniforms and quality of equipment.


In the context of the time it was written "well regulated" meant adequately organized and trained.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789
 

glhs837

Power with Control
I think you're misunderstanding what the fear was. It's not the army deciding to work with the government to suppress the people, it's the army deciding they know how to run the country better then the politicians and establishing a military authority.

And let me ask you how many times have you run into someone either currently or formerly serving who expresses disgust in the civilian government, how it's incompetent and weak and how "that would never happen in the <insert branch of choice>"?

I mean there was fear the government could use the military that way as well, but that was not the only fear and I don't think the main thrust of worry.

You are correct, although the founders were I think were equally concerned with both possibilities. I think people today are generally more concerned with the misuse of the armed forces by the govt than the military deciding to overthrow the govt. Maybe some of the super liberal types might be concerned with the junta thing, but virtually no conservative types, and very few more center left or right folks would consider that even remotely possible. I encounter quite a few who express disgust with govt, very few of those who express that the military could do better. Certainly not enough of either to support any real concern. Corporal Schmuckatelli ranting on FB aside, military folks understand the reasons for civilian control. Were the govt to toss the Constitution, that might change, given that the oath of office is first to that, then to the govt, but barring that, military takeover is the plots of movies, not a real thing here.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
You are correct, although the founders were I think were equally concerned with both possibilities.

Yes, they were.

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
 

TheLibertonian

New Member
You are correct, although the founders were I think were equally concerned with both possibilities. I think people today are generally more concerned with the misuse of the armed forces by the govt than the military deciding to overthrow the govt. Maybe some of the super liberal types might be concerned with the junta thing, but virtually no conservative types, and very few more center left or right folks would consider that even remotely possible. I encounter quite a few who express disgust with govt, very few of those who express that the military could do better. Certainly not enough of either to support any real concern. Corporal Schmuckatelli ranting on FB aside, military folks understand the reasons for civilian control. Were the govt to toss the Constitution, that might change, given that the oath of office is first to that, then to the govt, but barring that, military takeover is the plots of movies, not a real thing here.

I don't really think it's going to happen now either, but it's one of those things where one has to consider all possibilities and understand the nature of ourselves. We've not yet had a napoleon but it's not an impossibility that will happen, especially if we keep throwing ourselves into wars, especially wars that don't have a good enough justification for the common soldiers mind mixed with bad results and the suggestion of incompetence at an upper level while the "napoleon" shows himself to be both intelligent and charismatic.

The real fact of the matter is we've been lucky. Our military leaders have always bowed to the civilian authority and never sought that power for themselves. Throughout the rest of the world that trend is a bit different.

I couldn't tell you why though. We really are an anomaly when it comes to that. I think for part of it is our focus on education in the belief in civil government.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
I think for part of it is our focus on education in the belief in civil government.

Could be.

“The most erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.”
― H.L. Mencken
 

TheLibertonian

New Member
Could be.

“The most erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.”
― H.L. Mencken

i wasn't talking about just our public education system, but our ethos as a society.
 
How they are trained is regulated by the states, GURPS. That's why maryland is the Old Line State. Because our state legislature (or at the time revolutionary legislature I suppose) set down fairly strict training requirements in our militias and things like uniforms and quality of equipment.

Here's where the consideration gets a little bit complicated; perhaps better said it's were specific intent isn't quite as clear.

When the Second Amendment was passed it only affected - it was only meant to affect - what the federal government could do. But when it came to that federal government it was supposed to be a strict prohibition: The federal government did not get to say who could have arms or what arms they could have or prevent people from bearing arms. The federal government was to have no authority - none, zero, zilch - to regulate the private possession of arms. Full stop.

The states remained free, based on their (relevantly unencumbered) plenary powers, to regulate arms possession and related things. To the extent there needed to be regulation regarding arms, the states would be able to impose it. (Here I'm using the term regulation with a somewhat different meaning than it had as used in the Second Amendment.)

But then the 14th Amendment was passed. It was intended, among other things, to wholesale apply the restrictions existing as against the federal government in the Bill of Rights as against the states. But when it came to particular restrictions found in the Bill of Rights, at least when it came to some of them, they weren't given much individual consideration. They weren't necessarily specifically considered and debated at length. When it came to adopting the Bill of Rights in the late 18th Century, each Amendment and each rights protection was to some degree considered in itself. That's how each provision got in. There were understandings (thought to some degree they differed among early Americans) of what each provision would mean, each had considered intents (though, again, sometimes those intents differed among various people).

When it comes to those same provisions applying as against states, they're all wrapped up in the words "[n]o state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." (At least, they were supposed to be; as it is now they're supposedly wrapped up in the words "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") The clear intents of the various rights protections aren't as well fleshed out; they weren't as well considered individually. So it's hard to say what in specific most people who played a role in enacting the 14th Amendment intended for it to mean when it came to each of the respective rights protections that it meant to encompass. So how are we supposed to know for sure what they specifically meant? How strict was the prohibition against infringing on individuals' rights to keep an bear arms - as applied to states, not as applied to the federal government - meant to be understood?

When it comes to the federal government, I think we can know that. We can know what particular concerns caused the Founders to enact the Second Amendment and based on those concerns it's fair to conclude that the federal government was not to be allowed any leeway whatsoever to regulate arms possession. When it comes the the states however, the concerns that lead to the enactment of the 14th Amendment were different - and they were more general as applying to a big swath of rights protections rather than being really clear as related to a particular rights protection. So, based on those different concerns, what's the proper understanding of how inviolable the right to keep and bear arms should be?

I think the best way to deal with such lack of specific clarity is to take this position: Well, they enacted the 14th Amendment to, among other things, apply the Bill of Rights to states. And to the extent they didn't qualify how any of the rights referred to in it may apply differently to states than they do to the federal government, we have to assume that they are to apply exactly the same way - or as near as possible to exactly the same way. If that creates problems - e.g., because of how state and local governments function differently than the federal government or because it leaves no government (federal, state or local) with, e.g., the authority to do anything at all to regulate arms, to even prohibit the private possession of rocket launchers - then there's an amendment process which we can use to address those problems. But we shouldn't just assume that, in enacting the 14th Amendment, they meant to - for practical reasons - have certain rights treated differently when it comes to state government actions rather than federal government actions. If they had meant that to be the case, they should have so qualified certain rights which were among those they were wholesale applying as against states. If we were to know try to figure out what they might have wanted to be the case, we'd basically just be guessing - or being more honest, just deciding what we today want the rules to be. And that goes against the point of having a Constitution and the kinds of provisions found in the Bill of Rights. We don't get to decide based on the circumstances of today what is meant by the rules created by the Constitution. We only get to apply those rules to the circumstances of today. To the extent we want to be able to decide today what the rules should be - what they should mean - we have to pass amendments to do so. And that's for good reason.

But few people that are in favor of so-called reasonable gun regulations want to admit that even they - even those reasonable gun regulations - are prohibited by our Constitution. They don't want to admit that an amendment is needed in order to allow any arms regulations to be properly enacted because they realize that although there'd be enough support to pass an amendment that would allow some regulations (e.g., such that private possession of rocket launchers could be banned or such that someone convicted of murder could be prohibited from owning guns if they ever got out of jail), there probably wouldn't be enough support to pass an amendment that allowed many of the other regulations that they want to have (e.g., such that private possession of so-called assault rifles could be banned).

There are some gun regulations that we probably should have (though for my part I think they'd be considerably fewer than what we currently have). But as it is I don't think any of them are constitutional. When enough of us agree on that, and that we need to pass an amendment to allow for reasonable gun regulations before any of them would be proper, then we can move on to having a conversation about what kinds of regulations are reasonable and needed.
 

LC_Sulla

New Member
Thankfully, when determining constitutionality of something, the courts typically go back and determine how language was meant during the time.

Our Founding Fathers would be woefully upset in terms of where we are and how our opinions have shifted away from their original intent.

Addressing your second sentence. Would they? How do you know that with the absolute certainty that I read in your post? Let's imagine that we pulled someone from the past, forward in time. Of course, they would be very discombobulated at first. They might be very surprised, afraid, or even angry at the changes that have happened since their time. After some time and learning, they might well come to some different conclusions.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Addressing your second sentence. Would they? How do you know that with the absolute certainty that I read in your post? Let's imagine that we pulled someone from the past, forward in time. Of course, they would be very discombobulated at first. They might be very surprised, afraid, or even angry at the changes that have happened since their time. After some time and learning, they might well come to some different conclusions.

OR would they be dismayed by the extent of the restrictions that DO now exist when it comes to owning firearms? Considering that they wanted none at all. They would probably be dismayed by the massive size and overreach of the federal government too...something they feared greatly and tried to prevent.
 

LC_Sulla

New Member
Here's where the consideration gets a little bit complicated; perhaps better said it's were specific intent isn't quite as clear.

When the Second Amendment was passed it only affected - it was only meant to affect - what the federal government could do. But when it came to that federal government it was supposed to be a strict prohibition: The federal government did not get to say who could have arms or what arms they could have or prevent people from bearing arms. The federal government was to have no authority - none, zero, zilch - to regulate the private possession of arms. Full stop.

The states remained free, based on their (relevantly unencumbered) plenary powers, to regulate arms possession and related things. To the extent there needed to be regulation regarding arms, the states would be able to impose it. (Here I'm using the term regulation with a somewhat different meaning than it had as used in the Second Amendment.)

But then the 14th Amendment was passed. It was intended, among other things, to wholesale apply the restrictions existing as against the federal government in the Bill of Rights as against the states. But when it came to particular restrictions found in the Bill of Rights, at least when it came to some of them, they weren't given much individual consideration. They weren't necessarily specifically considered and debated at length. When it came to adopting the Bill of Rights in the late 18th Century, each Amendment and each rights protection was to some degree considered in itself. That's how each provision got in. There were understandings (thought to some degree they differed among early Americans) of what each provision would mean, each had considered intents (though, again, sometimes those intents differed among various people).

When it comes to those same provisions applying as against states, they're all wrapped up in the words "[n]o state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." (At least, they were supposed to be; as it is now they're supposedly wrapped up in the words "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") The clear intents of the various rights protections aren't as well fleshed out; they weren't as well considered individually. So it's hard to say what in specific most people who played a role in enacting the 14th Amendment intended for it to mean when it came to each of the respective rights protections that it meant to encompass. So how are we supposed to know for sure what they specifically meant? How strict was the prohibition against infringing on individuals' rights to keep an bear arms - as applied to states, not as applied to the federal government - meant to be understood?

When it comes to the federal government, I think we can know that. We can know what particular concerns caused the Founders to enact the Second Amendment and based on those concerns it's fair to conclude that the federal government was not to be allowed any leeway whatsoever to regulate arms possession. When it comes the the states however, the concerns that lead to the enactment of the 14th Amendment were different - and they were more general as applying to a big swath of rights protections rather than being really clear as related to a particular rights protection. So, based on those different concerns, what's the proper understanding of how inviolable the right to keep and bear arms should be?

I think the best way to deal with such lack of specific clarity is to take this position: Well, they enacted the 14th Amendment to, among other things, apply the Bill of Rights to states. And to the extent they didn't qualify how any of the rights referred to in it may apply differently to states than they do to the federal government, we have to assume that they are to apply exactly the same way - or as near as possible to exactly the same way. If that creates problems - e.g., because of how state and local governments function differently than the federal government or because it leaves no government (federal, state or local) with, e.g., the authority to do anything at all to regulate arms, to even prohibit the private possession of rocket launchers - then there's an amendment process which we can use to address those problems. But we shouldn't just assume that, in enacting the 14th Amendment, they meant to - for practical reasons - have certain rights treated differently when it comes to state government actions rather than federal government actions. If they had meant that to be the case, they should have so qualified certain rights which were among those they were wholesale applying as against states. If we were to know try to figure out what they might have wanted to be the case, we'd basically just be guessing - or being more honest, just deciding what we today want the rules to be. And that goes against the point of having a Constitution and the kinds of provisions found in the Bill of Rights. We don't get to decide based on the circumstances of today what is meant by the rules created by the Constitution. We only get to apply those rules to the circumstances of today. To the extent we want to be able to decide today what the rules should be - what they should mean - we have to pass amendments to do so. And that's for good reason.

But few people that are in favor of so-called reasonable gun regulations want to admit that even they - even those reasonable gun regulations - are prohibited by our Constitution. They don't want to admit that an amendment is needed in order to allow any arms regulations to be properly enacted because they realize that although there'd be enough support to pass an amendment that would allow some regulations (e.g., such that private possession of rocket launchers could be banned or such that someone convicted of murder could be prohibited from owning guns if they ever got out of jail), there probably wouldn't be enough support to pass an amendment that allowed many of the other regulations that they want to have (e.g., such that private possession of so-called assault rifles could be banned).

There are some gun regulations that we probably should have (though for my part I think they'd be considerably fewer than what we currently have). But as it is I don't think any of them are constitutional. When enough of us agree on that, and that we need to pass an amendment to allow for reasonable gun regulations before any of them would be proper, then we can move on to having a conversation about what kinds of regulations are reasonable and needed.

I have great respect for your writing abilities and your reasoning skills. Your response reads like a judicial opinion. If you were on the Supreme court, there would likely be 3-4 other opinions with you and against you.

I suspect (not my position, just my thought) that people who want political change first go for the path of least resistance (like most people). Amending the Constitution is not one of those paths. Again, not saying that's right or wrong. It just is. I believe we see this all the time in politics regardless of affiliation.

You rule!
 

TheLibertonian

New Member
Here's where the consideration gets a little bit complicated; perhaps better said it's were specific intent isn't quite as clear.

When the Second Amendment was passed it only affected - it was only meant to affect - what the federal government could do. But when it came to that federal government it was supposed to be a strict prohibition: The federal government did not get to say who could have arms or what arms they could have or prevent people from bearing arms. The federal government was to have no authority - none, zero, zilch - to regulate the private possession of arms. Full stop.

The states remained free, based on their (relevantly unencumbered) plenary powers, to regulate arms possession and related things. To the extent there needed to be regulation regarding arms, the states would be able to impose it. (Here I'm using the term regulation with a somewhat different meaning than it had as used in the Second Amendment.)

But then the 14th Amendment was passed. It was intended, among other things, to wholesale apply the restrictions existing as against the federal government in the Bill of Rights as against the states. But when it came to particular restrictions found in the Bill of Rights, at least when it came to some of them, they weren't given much individual consideration. They weren't necessarily specifically considered and debated at length. When it came to adopting the Bill of Rights in the late 18th Century, each Amendment and each rights protection was to some degree considered in itself. That's how each provision got in. There were understandings (thought to some degree they differed among early Americans) of what each provision would mean, each had considered intents (though, again, sometimes those intents differed among various people).

When it comes to those same provisions applying as against states, they're all wrapped up in the words "[n]o state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." (At least, they were supposed to be; as it is now they're supposedly wrapped up in the words "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") The clear intents of the various rights protections aren't as well fleshed out; they weren't as well considered individually. So it's hard to say what in specific most people who played a role in enacting the 14th Amendment intended for it to mean when it came to each of the respective rights protections that it meant to encompass. So how are we supposed to know for sure what they specifically meant? How strict was the prohibition against infringing on individuals' rights to keep an bear arms - as applied to states, not as applied to the federal government - meant to be understood?

When it comes to the federal government, I think we can know that. We can know what particular concerns caused the Founders to enact the Second Amendment and based on those concerns it's fair to conclude that the federal government was not to be allowed any leeway whatsoever to regulate arms possession. When it comes the the states however, the concerns that lead to the enactment of the 14th Amendment were different - and they were more general as applying to a big swath of rights protections rather than being really clear as related to a particular rights protection. So, based on those different concerns, what's the proper understanding of how inviolable the right to keep and bear arms should be?

I think the best way to deal with such lack of specific clarity is to take this position: Well, they enacted the 14th Amendment to, among other things, apply the Bill of Rights to states. And to the extent they didn't qualify how any of the rights referred to in it may apply differently to states than they do to the federal government, we have to assume that they are to apply exactly the same way - or as near as possible to exactly the same way. If that creates problems - e.g., because of how state and local governments function differently than the federal government or because it leaves no government (federal, state or local) with, e.g., the authority to do anything at all to regulate arms, to even prohibit the private possession of rocket launchers - then there's an amendment process which we can use to address those problems. But we shouldn't just assume that, in enacting the 14th Amendment, they meant to - for practical reasons - have certain rights treated differently when it comes to state government actions rather than federal government actions. If they had meant that to be the case, they should have so qualified certain rights which were among those they were wholesale applying as against states. If we were to know try to figure out what they might have wanted to be the case, we'd basically just be guessing - or being more honest, just deciding what we today want the rules to be. And that goes against the point of having a Constitution and the kinds of provisions found in the Bill of Rights. We don't get to decide based on the circumstances of today what is meant by the rules created by the Constitution. We only get to apply those rules to the circumstances of today. To the extent we want to be able to decide today what the rules should be - what they should mean - we have to pass amendments to do so. And that's for good reason.

But few people that are in favor of so-called reasonable gun regulations want to admit that even they - even those reasonable gun regulations - are prohibited by our Constitution. They don't want to admit that an amendment is needed in order to allow any arms regulations to be properly enacted because they realize that although there'd be enough support to pass an amendment that would allow some regulations (e.g., such that private possession of rocket launchers could be banned or such that someone convicted of murder could be prohibited from owning guns if they ever got out of jail), there probably wouldn't be enough support to pass an amendment that allowed many of the other regulations that they want to have (e.g., such that private possession of so-called assault rifles could be banned).

There are some gun regulations that we probably should have (though for my part I think they'd be considerably fewer than what we currently have). But as it is I don't think any of them are constitutional. When enough of us agree on that, and that we need to pass an amendment to allow for reasonable gun regulations before any of them would be proper, then we can move on to having a conversation about what kinds of regulations are reasonable and needed.

As always I enjoy and thank you for taking the time to reply.

I agree with you on principal that it is strictly against the constitution, as it is now, to have firearm regulations. I also agree with you that an amendment should be made to allow some form of gun regulation. I am, as I have proposed many times, a federalist, who believes that the municipality, the state, and the federal government should all acts as checks on each other.

however I think there is a level of realpolitik and practicality we have to deal with. If tomorrow you deregulated weapon purchase completely do you think that would be in the spirit of what our founders wanted when it came to private gun ownership, considering the massive gap of time between then and now in firearms technology? And I believe that the issue is so politicized no such amendment would ever be able to be passed in my lifetime unless there is a sudden and shocking shift in the political climate.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
There are some gun regulations that we probably should have (though for my part I think they'd be considerably fewer than what we currently have). But as it is I don't think any of them are constitutional. When enough of us agree on that, and that we need to pass an amendment to allow for reasonable gun regulations before any of them would be proper, then we can move on to having a conversation about what kinds of regulations are reasonable and needed.

It stems from a government that takes advantage of an ignorant society. I don't say that in a contemptuous or superior way; because I hold some pretty deep ignorance on constitutional matters. Most folks are just content with trusting our government does things in our best interest. I mean they took an oath to support and defend the constitution – right? Therefore we make very little effort verify what our elected officials are doing and hold them to the constitution.

And we want immediate relief when a disaster happens. 911 occurs, and we demand our government immediately start taping lines to catch the bad guys. A mass shooting happens and we want an immediate answer to the gun problem in the country. We can’t afford to go through the political wranglings of the amendment process. Not realizing, until after it’s done, just how much of our rights got stomped on.

Thanks for an awesome post! :buddies:
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
:bs:


Makes NO difference .... you think a cannon isn't dangerous ?

And I'm quite certain the Founders assumed that we would always possess and keep at hand whatever the latest in firearms technology happens to be. That's a "well, duh".

Didn't the British consider our effective use of skilled marksmen with rifled barrels "unfair", given the advantage of standoff range that conferred on us?
 
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TheLibertonian

New Member
And I'm quite certain the Founders assumed that we would always possess and keep at hand whatever the latest in firearms technology happens to be. That's a "well, duh".

Didn't the British consider our effective use of skilled marksmen with rifled barrels "unfair", given the advantage of standoff range that conferred on us?

You're confusing "keeping up with firearms technology" and understanding how drastically firearms would change and what they would become capable of. Or say, a tank.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
however I think there is a level of realpolitik and practicality we have to deal with. If tomorrow you deregulated weapon purchase completely do you think that would be in the spirit of what our founders wanted when it came to private gun ownership, considering the massive gap of time between then and now in firearms technology?

Yes! Because, despite the weapon, the VAST MAJORITY of Americans would still handle those weapons as law abiding citizens; not wanting to harm any innocent person, but only to defend themselves, their families, their property, and this nation if necessary.
 
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