Another Nut Gives Guns a Bad Name

[Larry Gude]

There is no end to...

...my fascination at how people are afraid of objects, not people and how intellectual inconsistency is some kind of virtue.



This man is PEACEFULLY exercising civil disobedience precisely so he can get his views INTO a court of law. He is making a stand. Making a point. How American. How 'hip'. If the ACLU was, well, what they claim to be, shouldn't he be their new poster child of the week?

Folks will be lighting up cigarettes all over Montgomery County in the coming months so they to can challenge rules they feel are clearly wrong. Will some of us lose our minds as they spew their deadly toxin in protest? Their second hand smoke? (which, BTW, was the basis of the law, that people shouldn't be FORCED to work in such dangerous conditions).

I wonder if we should ever get around to the reasons people make a choice to carry a weapon and deal with what they are concerned about instead of fear of their taking responsibility for their own safety? People like this guy, Shawn Penn, Rosie...

Also, what if we got around to the reasons we can say absurd things like ‘a person is FORCED to work in a bar’? What next? A law banning drinking so alcoholics won't suffer from work conditions? Bans on nightclub dancing so white guys who work there don't have to feel like they are motor skills challenged?

 

[Bruzilla]

 

[Steve]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
There's a difference between private property and private property that's open to the public. The mall is private property but it is open to the public, which means that you cannot restrict access to any particular person based on grounds that are protected by the Constitution.

Okay, if I went to the same mall, got up on a bench, and began orating about how much I hate minorities (just to use an example before you all start calling me a racist!) , would security not come and escort me off the premises? Free speech is a Constitutionally protected right.

Thoughts?

 

[Toxick]

Originally posted by Steve
Free speech is a Constitutionally protected right.

Thoughts?

Free speech is a Constitutionally protected right.

Inciting a riot is not.

 

[Steve]

But that brings us back to a persistent point in any discussion of gun control. What is at issue here, the act of doing or the repercussions of that act? My free speech might cause a riot, but until that happens, have I broken any laws? Similarly, if I carry a gun, what crime have I committed?

 

[Steve]

CSI had a great epsiode last night that relates to this debate. Plot summary, for those who missed the show:

Plot #1: Little boy finds handgun in his backyard. Boy shoots himself in the foot. "Will you ever play with guns again?" "No" he replies. Lesson taught: Guns are dangerous. To quote the fictional mother: "We don't believe in guns."

Plot #2: Men forcefully enter a home and gang rape the 16-old virgin daughter. Dad is distraught because he failed to protect his daughter. Fearful to testify, the daughter comes close but does not identify the suspects. Suspects return and kill her. Fade to black. Lesson taught: Not preparing for this type of crime could expose you and your family to dreadful consequences.

The second plot underscores what everyone already knows, and that is that the police cannot gaurantee the safety of any of our citizens. We must therefore take measures to protect ourselves, through education and training, or we will always be the victims.

 

[T.Rally]

Originally posted by Steve
My free speech might cause a riot, but until that happens, have I broken any laws? Similarly, if I carry a gun, what crime have I committed?

No criminal laws broken but it breaks societal law. Societal laws are those that emphasize the protection of society or the maintenance of order and stability rather than protecting the rights of members of society.

 

[Steve]

Originally posted by T.Rally
No criminal laws broken but it breaks societal law. Societal laws are those that emphasize the protection of society or the maintenance of order and stability rather than protecting the rights of members of society.

Where are these societal laws written down? You mean ordnances, edicts, Common Law, that sort of thing?

 

[T.Rally]

Society, determines acceptable and unacceptable social behavior. Many of society's rules are so thoroughly accepted we don't even think about them. That we speak primarily English in the United States is purely a matter of custom. That we eat certain animals and don't eat others (horse is very popular in France), sleep in a bed (the Japanese do not understand why we need a bedroom), bury our dead (cremation is the tradition in India), and so much more, are all purely matters of social custom. Although in this country one can speak Croatian, eat horse, sleep on a futon, and be cremated, the vast majority of people choose not to.

 

[Steve]

Originally posted by T.Rally
Society, determines acceptable and unacceptable social behavior. Many of society's rules are so thoroughly accepted we don't even think about them. That we speak primarily English in the United States is purely a matter of custom. That we eat certain animals and don't eat others (horse is very popular in France), sleep in a bed (the Japanese do not understand why we need a bedroom), bury our dead (cremation is the tradition in India), and so much more, are all purely matters of social custom. Although in this country one can speak Croatian, eat horse, sleep on a futon, and be cremated, the vast majority of people choose not to.

So you are saying that your decision not to eat horse effects my decision to go to a mall and spout racist propaganda? As I am escorted out of the mall (which will undoubtedly happen), the determination of whether or not I was attempting to incite a riot will begin. Most likely, I will not be charged with anything, just removed. For the good of the peaceful mall harmony. Social customs are very different from Law. The mall, through local ordinance, has the right to remove whomever they please.

 

[Toxick]

Originally posted by Steve
My free speech might cause a riot, but until that happens, have I broken any laws? Similarly, if I carry a gun, what crime have I committed?

Well, free speech extends only so far. For instance you cannot yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, to site a popular cliche. Verbalizing threats of violence and death against, say, the president will also land you in a room with a man wearing a rubber glove and armed besuited men. At a purely constitutional level, these things should be within the boundaries of the first amendment blanket.

Now don't get me wrong - if you carry a gun, you've committed no crime, and I am a pro-gun dude - I think everyone should be free to walk around toting arms.



I just think that the analogy you're using about shouting racial slurs in a public place is flawed.

 

[Steve]

Originally posted by Toxick
I just think that the analogy you're using about shouting racial slurs in a public place is flawed.

I used that analogy to explain that even though a mall is open to the public, particular rules can be applied that preclude certain other rights, i.e 1st Ammendment for public safety, 2nd Amendment for public safety, etc.