Answer for Bustem Down (Plus a few thoughts)

[Railroad]

Tuesday Thread 7-26-5
<HR style="COLOR: #e5e5cc" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." - Jesus Christ, in John 5:24-30 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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Hearing involves more than just being able to intercept and detect sound waves. Truly hearing means absorption and understanding, and so truly hearing involves listening. Listening entails a desire to absorb and understand, a desire born of the recognition that we could otherwise miss something of value.

Listening is normally associated with strictly auditory processes, but in literature, it is said that a good author has a "voice." That means that when you read a person's words, you can imagine that person's voice speaking them, because the style is so predictable and powerful.

So it is with the Words of Christ recorded in the Bible. "He that has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus warns His disciples that the time of judgement is coming, in which ALL of us, dating back to the Garden of Eden, will be judged. Those who died before Jesus' time will be judged by their works, whether good or evil. And we who are living in the years since Christ are blessed with the protection of Jesus Himself, if we love Him, accept Him, and ask for His forgiveness and our rebirth.

These things don't change because it would be convenient for those who would like to sin and still go to heaven. God loves us all, and He is unwilling that any should go to eternal damnation, but He also requires that we love Him and keep His commandments. We can neither rationalize nor reconcile the desires of today's secular society with the ageless Law of God.

For this reason, you are a torch held high before the unsaved masses; like animals they may react with fear and anger, but some of them will see you as a beacon, an example to be followed, an unchanging representation of all that is good and right in the eyes of Christ. Reborn, you are His representative. Discharge your duties well, fellow Christians - Jesus is with you by your side, and God's watching you.

May God bless you today! May He send you the strength, the courage, and the determination to do as He wishes today.
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[2ndAmendment]

And this ...

Revelation 20:11-15


<sup id="en-NASB-31051">11</sup>Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. <sup id="en-NASB-31052">12</sup>And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

<sup id="en-NASB-31053">13</sup>And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

<sup id="en-NASB-31054">14</sup>Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

<sup id="en-NASB-31055">15</sup>And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You are assured of being in the Book of Life if you have Jesus as Savior and Lord. Those that never had the oportunity to accept Jesus will be judged according to their deeds.

 

[crabcake]

And this ...
You are assured of being in the Book of Life if you have Jesus as Savior and Lord. Those that never had the oportunity to accept Jesus will be judged according to their deeds.

In other words, those who don't acknowledge Jesus as their savior still have a chance to get into heaven so long as they essentially lead a good life.

 

[2ndAmendment]

In other words, those who don't acknowledge Jesus as their savior still have a chance to get into heaven so long as they essentially lead a good life.

Not quite. Have they heard and had the opportunity to accept Jesus? No - judged on life. Yes and not accepted - uh oh, too bad, so sad. Yes and accepted - in the Book of Life.

Clearer? Very few in the world today have any excuse.

 

[Dondi]

Hi! This is my first post ever on this forum.

Anyway, I have a question. Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hung of just two commandments, to paraphrase: Love God and your neighbor as yourself. From what I gather from responses in this post, if you happen to be born in another religion, but follow these commandments (since other religions believe in God, but have no knowledge of Christ), you can still go to heaven. But if God requires perfection, how can one be saved?

 

[Bustem' Down]

Hi! This is my first post ever on this forum.

Anyway, I have a question. Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hung of just two commandments, to paraphrase: Love God and your neighbor as yourself. From what I gather from responses in this post, if you happen to be born in another religion, but follow these commandments (since other religions believe in God, but have no knowledge of Christ), you can still go to heaven. But if God requires perfection, how can one be saved?

God doesn't require perfection. It can't be attained. If he does require it, I might as well not even try.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Hi! This is my first post ever on this forum.

Anyway, I have a question. Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hung of just two commandments, to paraphrase: Love God and your neighbor as yourself. From what I gather from responses in this post, if you happen to be born in another religion, but follow these commandments (since other religions believe in God, but have no knowledge of Christ), you can still go to heaven. But if God requires perfection, how can one be saved?

Other religions, except Jews, do not believe in the same God, the Father, YHWH. God requires righteousness. Belief of God is reckoned as righteousness. If you believe God, then you believe Jesus is the Savior.

Only those that have NEVER heard of salvation through the Son of man, God come in human form, Y'shua, Jesus, will be judged on their life. All that have had the opportunity to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord will be judged on whether they believed God and accepted God's plan of salvation or they rejected God's plan and went on some other way.

 

[Dondi]

O.K. Suppose I were, say, a young Muslim man, maybe 18 years old. All my life I've only known that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger. I've tried to live the Five Pillars and read the Qur'an. I live in a culture where other religions are considered blasphemy and to believe in any other but the tenets of Islam would mean damnation. If I tried to chose another religion, my family would disown me and cast me away. Having had no real contact with the Bible or the concept of Jesus (PBUH) as Savior and Lord, rather than the teaching that he is a prophet sent before Muhammad (PBUH), does the possibility of salvation exist?

 

[Tonio]

Those that never had the oportunity to accept Jesus will be judged according to their deeds.

When I read stuff like that, I imagine a kid taunting a sibling who has just done something bad, saying "Oooh, you're gonna get it!"

 

[Railroad]

O.K. Suppose I were, say, a young Muslim man, maybe 18 years old. All my life I've only known that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger. I've tried to live the Five Pillars and read the Qur'an. I live in a culture where other religions are considered blasphemy and to believe in any other but the tenets of Islam would mean damnation. If I tried to chose another religion, my family would disown me and cast me away. Having had no real contact with the Bible or the concept of Jesus (PBUH) as Savior and Lord, rather than the teaching that he is a prophet sent before Muhammad (PBUH), does the possibility of salvation exist?

Go back to previous posts and read for comprehension. This question has already been answered several times.

 

[Railroad]

When I read stuff like that, I imagine a kid taunting a sibling who has just done something bad, saying "Oooh, you're gonna get it!"

Well, that's your imagination for ya!

 

[Railroad]

God doesn't require perfection. It can't be attained. If he does require it, I might as well not even try.

Good answer.

 

[Dondi]

Go back to previous posts and read for comprehension. This question has already been answered several times.

I'm actually responding to 2A's assertion that only the Jews and Christians have the only true God. My question stems from the fact that there are many in the world seeking what they believe to be the truth within the confines of their religion. Even if their concept of God is wrong, they are honestly and sincerely and seeking God, but not according to Biblical knowledge.

Deuteronomy 4:49 says, "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." What if one who is in another religion is seeking God with all his heart and soul, but because of the restrictions of his religion is limited in that knowledge? Do you think God would honor his efforts and make himself known in his heart, apart from the knowledge of Jesus?

I've heard of a certain Muslim who has claimed they felt Allah's or God's forgiveness in their heart and change them spiritually. Is it possible that God's grace extends to those truly seeking? That the blood of Jesus Christ may somehow cover them, even if they never heard?

 

[2ndAmendment]

O.K. Suppose I were, say, a young Muslim man, maybe 18 years old. All my life I've only known that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger. I've tried to live the Five Pillars and read the Qur'an. I live in a culture where other religions are considered blasphemy and to believe in any other but the tenets of Islam would mean damnation. If I tried to chose another religion, my family would disown me and cast me away. Having had no real contact with the Bible or the concept of Jesus (PBUH) as Savior and Lord, rather than the teaching that he is a prophet sent before Muhammad (PBUH), does the possibility of salvation exist?

From my reading of the Bible if said Muslim was presented with the choice of accepting Jesus and said Muslim rejected Jesus, no, but I am certainly not God.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm actually responding to 2A's assertion that only the Jews and Christians have the only true God. My question stems from the fact that there are many in the world seeking what they believe to be the truth within the confines of their religion. Even if their concept of God is wrong, they are honestly and sincerely and seeking God, but not according to Biblical knowledge.

Deuteronomy 4:49 says, "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." What if one who is in another religion is seeking God with all his heart and soul, but because of the restrictions of his religion is limited in that knowledge? Do you think God would honor his efforts and make himself known in his heart, apart from the knowledge of Jesus?

I've heard of a certain Muslim who has claimed they felt Allah's or God's forgiveness in their heart and change them spiritually. Is it possible that God's grace extends to those truly seeking? That the blood of Jesus Christ may somehow cover them, even if they never heard?

There is the key to your position, and it has been answered through scripture posted in this thread. If a person has NEVER heard, as I read it in the Bible, they are judged by the motives of their hearts. Again, I am not God and cannot put words into His mouth. I also don't think there are very many in the current world that have not heard of Salvation through Jesus.

I know that the God of the Bible is the True God, but I did not say that in my post. I said that other religions do not worship the same God as Christians and Jews do.

 

[Dondi]

From my reading of the Bible if said Muslim was presented with the choice of accepting Jesus and said Muslim rejected Jesus, no, but I am certainly not God.

Yeah, but what if the only Jesus is the one he gathers from the Qur'an, which explicitely teaches that God has no son. He may have even heard that those "heathen Xtians" are worshipping an idol and will burn in hell for regarding Jesus (PBUH) as the Son of God. So he is in kind of a Catch-22, isn't he? Don't you think God transends their religion in cases like this?

 

[Dondi]

I know that the God of the Bible is the True God, but I did not say that in my post. I said that other religions do not worship the same God as Christians and Jews do.

I beg to differ. Jews do not worship the same God as Christians do. They do not believe in the Trinity, nor regard Jesus as the Messiah (unless they are Messianic Jews).

 

[2ndAmendment]

I beg to differ. Jews do not worship the same God as Christians do. They do not believe in the Trinity, nor regard Jesus as the Messiah (unless they are Messianic Jews).

You are incorrect about God and correct about the Messiah.

The God of Christians, New Testament, is Y'howah, YHWH (Jews), and is the God of the Old Testament. The God of Christians is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which is the God of the Jews since all real Jews (by blood) come from Abraham and Sarah.

-- bold of Matt 22:32 added by me.
Matthew 22:31-33

<sup id="en-NASB-23904">31</sup>"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:

<sup id="en-NASB-23905">32</sup>'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

<sup id="en-NASB-23906">33</sup>When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

You are correct that most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah even though He fulfilled every Old Testament prophesy of the Messiah. It is because the "cornerstone", Jesus, Y'shua, was rejected by the "children of God", Jews, that the "adopted children", Gentiles, non-Jews, me and those like me, are accepted under the plan of salvation. Of course God knew from the beginning that it would happen that way; that too was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Not all Christians believe in the concept of the trinity. You will not find the word trinity in the Bible. There is one God with three distict personalities. The concept of the Trinity did not come about until the[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.[/font]

 

[2ndAmendment]

Yeah, but what if the only Jesus is the one he gathers from the Qur'an, which explicitely teaches that God has no son. He may have even heard that those "heathen Xtians" are worshipping an idol and will burn in hell for regarding Jesus (PBUH) as the Son of God. So he is in kind of a Catch-22, isn't he? Don't you think God transends their religion in cases like this?

I believe the Bible. I leave the exceptions and human perceptions up to God. Pursuing this is futile with me.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Dondi, I perceive that you are a Muslim. I thought I'd pass this to you not that it is pertinent to the subject of salvation.

PBUH

These letters are abbreviations for the words Peace Be Upon Him which are the meaning of the Arabic expression " 'Alaihis Salam", which is an expression that is said when the name of a prophet is mentioned.

This expression is widely used by English speaking Muslims. It is to be noticed here that this expression does not give the full meaning of "Salla Allahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam". Therefore it is recommended that people do not use (p.b.u.h.) after the name of prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.); they should use "Salla Allahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam" instead, or they may use the abbreviated form of (s.a..w) in writing.

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