Answer for Bustem Down (Plus a few thoughts)

[Tonio]

I beg to differ. Jews do not worship the same God as Christians do.

I had the impression that Jews, Christians and Muslims all share the same God.

 

[Dondi]

You are incorrect about God and correct about the Messiah.

The God of Christians, New Testament, is Y'howah, YHWH (Jews), and is the God of the Old Testament. The God of Christians is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which is the God of the Jews since all real Jews (by blood) come from Abraham and Sarah.
You are correct that most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah even though He fulfilled every Old Testament prophesy of the Messiah. It is because the "cornerstone", Jesus, Y'shua, was rejected by the "children of God", Jews, that the "adopted children", Gentiles, non-Jews, me and those like me, are accepted under the plan of salvation. Of course God knew from the beginning that it would happen that way; that too was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Not all Christians believe in the concept of the trinity. You will not find the word trinity in the Bible. There is one God with three distict personalities. The concept of the Trinity did not come about until the[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.[/font]

OK, so are you saying that you believe that Jesus is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

My point about the Jews not believing in the same God as Christians is that they don't believe Jesus is God, whereas Christians believe that Jesus and the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God.

I will concede that Christians believe in the same God as the Jews, since they are extensions of the Jewish faith, albeit adopted.

And, no, I am not Muslim. I used this for illustration purposes in supposing I was Muslim in formulating my question. I did this out of repect for any Muslims who might view this post. I did not mean to mislead you.

 

[Railroad]

OK, so are you saying that you believe that Jesus is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

My point about the Jews not believing in the same God as Christians is that they don't believe Jesus is God, whereas Christians believe that Jesus and the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God.

I will concede that Christians believe in the same God as the Jews, since they are extensions of the Jewish faith, albeit adopted.

And, no, I am not Muslim. I used this for illustration purposes in supposing I was Muslim in formulating my question. I did this out of repect for any Muslims who might view this post. I did not mean to mislead you.

Jesus is God the Son.

Why are you playing dumb?

 

[Dondi]

Jesus is God the Son.

Why are you playing dumb?

I'm not playing dumb. I'm asking if 2A believes that Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I know there are certain Christian denominations who believe that way and I'm just tying to get a feel of what 2A believes, since he mentioned that the concept of the Trinity is a fourth century establishment.

 

[2ndAmendment]

The concept of the trinity was an attempt to make Christianity more acceptable to the people of the Roman Empire that believed in polytheism just as the the deification of Mary was introduced to appease those that believed in a female deity (I know I'm stepping on Catholics, but I'm just relating the history of the church.). Both of these concepts are foreign to early Christianity and are a "bastardization" of Biblical precepts and teachings.

Jesus is God the Father incarnate as man. That is why Jesus is called in the more literal translations the Son of Man and not the Son of God. Jesus said He is the Father.

John 14:7-11

<sup id="en-NASB-26676">7</sup>"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." <sup id="en-NASB-26677">8</sup>Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

<sup id="en-NASB-26678">9</sup>Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

<sup id="en-NASB-26679">10</sup>"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

<sup id="en-NASB-26680">11</sup>"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

The Holy Spirit is also God. Matter of fact Jesus said the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Mark 3:28-29

<sup id="en-NASB-24317">28</sup>"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; <sup id="en-NASB-24318">29</sup>but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

I believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are personalities or forms of the same God. Human thought has a difficult time grasping this concept (me too), but I accept it on faith. I really don't think the concept of the trinity is high on the list of things to worry about. As Paul said, we know in part and understand in part, but all will be revealed in due time.

1 Corinthians 13:9-12

<sup id="en-NASB-28675">9</sup>For we know in part and we prophesy in part; <sup id="en-NASB-28676">10</sup>but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

<sup id="en-NASB-28677">11</sup>When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

<sup id="en-NASB-28678">12</sup>For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

 

[Dondi]

I believe that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are personalities or forms of the same God. Human thought has a difficult time grasping this concept (me too), but I accept it on faith. I really don't think the concept of the trinity is high on the list of things to worry about. As Paul said, we know in part and understand in part, but all will be revealed in due time.

Yes, we see through the glass darkly. I struggled with trying to figure out the nature of God because one particular church, in which I was a member some years ago, kept stressing I had to believe a certain way (that Jesus was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) in order to be saved. But the verse that liberated me from this confusion was John 14:11, "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." I just believed Him for the very works sake, rather than trying to figure out the Trinity/Oneness thing. I believe somehow Jesus is God, but unclear on the relationship between the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One thing I do know is that God is transcendent and imminent; He's everywhere and He manifests himself to those who truly seek Him.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... One thing I do know is that God is transcendent and imminent; He's everywhere and He manifests himself to those who truly seek Him.

I think those that truely seek Him will eventually find His plan of salvation through Jesus, too, because their hearts will be open and will recognize the Truth.

 

[Dondi]

I think those that truely seek Him will eventually find His plan of salvation through Jesus, too, because their hearts will be open and will recognize the Truth.

Perhaps. But I believe that even if they don't find Jesus, for whatever reason, but recognize and take hold of God's forgiveness as they understand it, that God's grace is available through a Savior they have not yet met.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Perhaps. But I believe that even if they don't find Jesus, for whatever reason, but recognize and take hold of God's forgiveness as they understand it, that God's grace is available through a Savior they have not yet met.

I believe the Bible and that is not what it says. I am just simple minded that way. See John 14:6 in my sig line.

 

[Dondi]

I believe the Bible and that is not what it says. I am just simple minded that way. See John 14:6 in my sig line.

I agree. No one comes to the Father except by Jesus. It's just that some people's ignorance prevents them from coming or knowing, but God knows their heart.