Anyone?

[PmoneyandTT]

If being fat doesn't refer to you - why bother acknowledging it.. I wasn't pointing it out to you any how.. John knew exactly who I was talking too.. And there isn't any power trip here.. Jimmy questioned why all of a sudden I did this or that.. He may of stopped - but others didn't.. Im not here to change your point of view of things.. I will post until my posting heart contents.. You post alot of blah blah blah.. But you keep on posting.. You may win this one yet..

You may discuss what BBC will post - but you have already come up with your own conclusions - so why debate on a issue that is already in cement in your mind..

You read - you came up with your conclusions.. You reading his conclusions will not have any impact on you - so why bother is the question Im asking.. Thats my view on things.. BBC will post - he is my brother I know he will - Im not concerned with that - My argument is why talk about something you already believe otherwise.. Its kinda like watching those News debates - it doesn't matter how many times the issue is brought up - everyone has their own conclusions - and it gets nowhere.. But like you said these are FORUMS.. Room for discussion.. Im sure it will be good.. And the reason I will not post to answer those questions is because I have said alot of things in previous post - let someone else get a turn.. 2nd - I think people should research somethings on their own - instead of waiting for someone else to do it for them.. I quess since I had to work for everything I got - I expect the same from others..

 

[andwhat]

Pmoney, I've looked hard for myself and I will admit that I've pretty much come to my own conclusions. i don't expect BBC to change my mind at all, but thats not what this is about. This is about learning how someone who considers themself a christian deals with this. This isn't about him convincing me to convert or anything like that, tis about trying to understand where he's coming from. Listening to others adn hearing their opinions isn't a weakness as you seem to see it, I rather know all I can about everything then sit comfortably in my own little world. I. like Jimmy, am curious as to how someone will respond, what they will say, how they will explain things. Its genuine curiosity with no agenda to prove/disprove anyone's faith or believing in God.
Knowledge for knowledge's sake so that we can understand anothers point of view and their reasons for that belief, even if we do not believe the same.

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Now I feel we are getting somewhere.. I enjoy talking to someone that has some intelligence.. I knew we would get there.. Just how long was the answer.. Well whatever BBC posts - I know the floor will be open..

 

[AnonymousPenguin]

It's all about understanding understanding understanding...  

 

[vraiblonde]

Jimmy, you said you wanted a Christian to answer.  I'm not, but you don't seem to be getting the responses your looking for.  May I?

The Old Testament isn't designed to be a handbook for behavior.  We know this because later, in the New Testament, Jesus rebukes a lot of the old laws and tells his faithful what  God <i>really</i> expects.

For instance, Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven."

Good advice, eh?  The Old Testament is to be read like a history book.  The moral handbook comes in the New Testament, when Jesus shows up to tell us how it's supposed to be done.  That's why God sent his Son in the first place - the humans weren't doing it right.

So is the "word of God" unchanging?  No.  It's just man's interpretation of it that has become bastardized.  And anyone who professes Christianity but still advocates the ways of the Old Testament isn't doing it right.  We know this because Jesus said so.

Is that what you're looking for?

 

[John]

Quote: from AnonymousPenguin on 1:29 pm on Nov. 28, 2001[br]Ok,

This post may not address the subject of the thread, but it seems like the right place to point this out.

John just apologized for offending anyone with his reference to fat people in another thread
If homosexuality is a choice, then why are those same type of references that were made to homosexuals ok?? He apologizes for offending fat people, but he does not feel that it is wrong to offend homosexuals.
Many fat people are fat by choice or laziness (still a choice).... yet you apologize...

I'm in the land of confusion now.

Nothing to be confused about Pengy.
I was describing a scenario built out of something Jimmy said. He made the derogatory remark, I used it to further my argument. I got the impression that others might misinterpret what I said so I offered an apology. Simply put it was that I said they weren't owed a place at someones employee roster.

I've not directly offended any homosexuals here either to my knowledge. I've simple stated in more ways than I can count I disapprove of their behavior and don't feel obligated to them in any way. If someone has picked up a few extra pounds in life, which will happen to 99%, it's a far different thing than a sexual deviance!

Teeny-tiny difference  {-------------------------------------}

(Edited by John at 3:10 pm on Nov. 28, 2001)

 

[andwhat]

blonde, thats a hell of a start and thanks for throwing that out there. That brings up a very interesting point baout the differences of the old and new testament and few people are willing to say that one part should be taken literalyl and the other not. There is a problem though between the old and new testament and that is the vision of God portrayed in both. in the old, he's more of a wrathful deity, punishment and the like, but in the New he's more of fluffy bunny loving type. These things seem quite different to me and I was wondering how you deal with this? I understand that God has many different sidees and faces and all, but these two seem to be polar opposites. I mean why would God go from punishing people in the old testament to get them to listen to him, to showering them wiht kindness in the new testament? perhaps thats a little off topic but its something I've always wondered and was curious about your views. I mean is God Scizophrenic?

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Blondie - You've been reading.... In a nutshell - I got the same understanding.. Bravo..

 

[Jimmyrich]

Wait a minute---so, from Blonde's post and TT's *baffling* agreement based on her other posts, the items mentioned in the Letter (capitalized so you know I'm talking about the Dr. Laura one) with specific reference to the old testament should be taken with a grain of salt? Or, just considered moot unless Jesus has directly said anything to them? Now--and I'm gonna go re-read blonde's post just so I get this right--ok, yeah.  The Old Testament is to be used as a "history book" and not the "unchanging word of god"?  Ok. Then how can you use it for justification when you say, for example, "homosexuality is wrong"? The condemnation comes from the Old Testament and, therefore, is as moot as the other items brought up in the Letter. There's the discrepency I see; Christians bust out the Old Testament when it deplores something they find morally reprehensible but say that it's merely "fiction" when it comes to slavery, touching a pig, growing crops etc. And TT, I can't BELIEVE that you think that you "got the same understanding". You have said NOTHING of the sort, in fact, you and BBC and Hessain have CONSISTANTLY stated that the word of God is unchanging and the like and that Man did NOT have a hand in misinterpreting the Bible. So which is it?
Vrai, your thinking IS along the lines of how I feel about it. History vs. moral guidelines etc. But how do you then justify using the Old Testament to say that God is against homosexuality??  That would be professing Christianity and using the Old Testament, right?

 

[AnonymousPenguin]

Excellent argument Jimmy!!!

I'm so proud of you...

can't wait to see a response...

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Unless you read - you can't get it all.. In the old testament they sacrificed animals.. N.T.. Jesus died so you wouldn't have to do that.. Your sins are forgiven if you just ask.. In the N.T.  There are specific things that Jesus says to change.. Nowhere in the N.T. does he say change about HOMO.. Sexual Immorality is still a big part in the N.T.. Including pre-martial sex - lust for others - HOMO is also included in Sexual Immorality..

This is the problem I see with you - You want everything put out in Black in White.. God doesn't work that way.. Why - Good question.. The only answer I have ever found on that question is "I have to have faith" I can't get it black or whiter then that.. People have been wanting proof about God and Jesus and all that for years and years.. God is all - he doesn't have to prove himself.  Regardless if I crossed all my T's and dotted my I's you would still find away to pull it apart.. You see no physical evidence these things exist - or if you do - its very small.. To pull my faith apart - and questioned every single detail - will just make this go on and on.. If you believe - then you believe - if you don't then so be it.. My change is for myself - I am striving to be with God would have me to be.. There isn't a question or answer to that.. Its a circle that goes on forever..

Question I have asked as a christian - If God knew that man was going to fall anyway - why wouldn't he destroy us - and not deal with all of this anyway.. The answer that is always put in my face.. Would you destroy your child - if it were bad all the time.. My answer would have to be no.. So my understanding of God's ways - aren't my ways and I have to be content with that.. Its my faith that I have to rely on.. Not what man - questions..

 

[AnonymousPenguin]

ok...

TT, you believe what you believe ...that is fine...no one is trying to make you stop that.  However, many people have used religion and the Bible to suggest that homosexuality is wrong.  They quote the Bible.  Now, if you agree that things that the Bible says change.  Then, obviously the "Bible argument" to show that homosexuality is wrong is invalid.  Maybe, Jesus didn't point out that correction...maybe it wasn't necessary to do so at that time.  Maybe we will have a new messiah that will reveal to us...that the O.T. writings of homosexuality should be changed for some reason or another.

The point:
1) You have said that NOT EVERYTHING in the O.T applies to our lives today.
2) You have said homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so.
3) Since, not everything in the O.T. applies to <i>today</i>, the words in the O.T concerning homosexuality may not apply today.

(Edited by AnonymousPenguin at 4:30 pm on Nov. 28, 2001)

 

[andwhat]

anon, you beat me to the post. In the NT, Jesus never says speciifically that its ok to plant two crops in the same field, but Pmoney you seem ready to accept the fact thats its allwowable. Likewise nowhere in the NT does Jesus reaffrim that homosexuality is a sin so it seems that you are using a double standard to justify your interpratation.

 

[Jimmyrich]

Exactly, Peng.

See, TT, what I'm getting at here is that when Christians are posed with moral dilemas, they do JUST WHAT YOU DID when you asked yourself the question about sacrificing your own child if it was bad. Of COURSE you wouldn't, you tell yourself. But God does. So, what conclusion do you reach? I got to have faith.  Well, TT, here's why I keep hitting on these ideas over and over again. Here is an example of one of the practices of God that you, as a human, disagree with and cannot find validation for other than---I've got to have faith.  Well this is why andwhat and I say "think for yourself". It's questioning like this that led me away from Christianity in the first place. I reached irreconsilable problems I had with the Doctrine of Faith and my own personal life. And I dont' think there's anything wrong with that.  You claim that faith is as Black and White a thing as it can be? Nothing could be further from the truth. Faith is the greatest Grey area known to man.  You cannot prove it, it is ever changing, and it's effects on you are varied with your level of commitment to each idea.  
Your comfortable with Homosexuality being wrong, yet, you take umbrage to God killing his own children...hmm...is that because you are not gay and you are a mother? Is it that you understand one side and not the other?
You are picking and choosing and not even realizing it.  The old testament condems homosexuality.  The NT does not address it at all. You say it's IMPLIED but that's YOUR interpretation. It is not mentioned. You are asssuming.  And what of the growing of two crops? Slavery?  Those are not specifically addressed either.  The words of the old testament are just as "in your bible" as those of the new. Yet, you CHOOSE to put more emphasis on the New. And that's fine. That's what being a Christian is all about after all. THEREFORE-----Don't use the Old Testament's attitude towards homosexuality in deciding how you feel about it.  Think about how you honestly feel. Don't just regurgitate that which you have been told.  Your faith in God can still allow room for your own interpretations of the world around you. If it did not, why did God bother giving us a free will in the first place? Just to make mistakes?  Mistakes that he supposedly abhors or is saddened by?  That just doesn't make sense.  And answering me with "faith" won't do because what good is faith if it leads you away from what you really feel deep down...and that's not Satan in there...it's you.

 

[SxyPrincess]

 

[Christy]

Okay, here's my highly simplified explanation of G-d and the Bible.  G-d is like a parent.  He's the parent of all of us.  As all parents do, you learn through experience.  The old Testament was an attempt at parenting the first children.  You see he created Adam and Eve and said as a good parent looking out for their children "don't do this"  for their own protection.  And Adam and Eve like the typical children figure he's just being mean and unfair and we want that apple.  So Dad had to punish them.  It's not that he didn't love them, we punish our kids all the time but we still always love them.  The New Testament is written through experience of parenting all those pain in the neck first kids.  

Well MY kid just whacked her brother, must go sort it out, so I'll try and continue this later.

 

[Hessian]

Time for a little enlightenment (It's worth a try)
The question raised is valid:
The world sees contradictions and different Characteristics of God between the OT & NT. They ponder why Christians seem to "pick & choose."
Good! Great observations:
ANSWER: Dispensationalism. This is debated within Christian communities...but what it comes down to is a gradually changing relationship between God and Man: Man moves AWAY from God.
1) God walks & Talks with Adam...then sin.--separation
2) God sends instructions to Noah (evil has spread, yet he wants to preserve those that follow him)
3) God sends priests (Melchizedek) & angels to guide the Patriarchs of  the Hebrews (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) MANY promises made to His Chosen people (NOT TO ALL HUMANITY!)
4) God preserves, punishes, reminds His People in Egypt and speaks to& sends a Prophet (Moses)...Laws are given (Deuteronomy & Leviticus) The Laws are focused on His People.--How he wants them to live.Revealing his nature and His Holiness.
5) God appoints warriors to get the Hebrews into Israel (Joshua...Gideon...etc.) Uses signs, expects His people to stay Holy....they drift.
6) God appoints Judges to bring Israel back to Him (Samson, Samuel etc.)
7) The People want a King, God warns them through his priests that it is not a good idea..they get Saul-then David-Solomon...and the empire falls to pieces.
8) God sends prophets to warn and try to get His people back...many are persecuted/killed...etc.

The 300+ years of "silence" are finally broken: God sends his Son. (Christ tells the parable of the Owner of the Vineyard sending messengers who are rejected...then sends his son to bring the farmers back under authority; they Kill him!)...and in life, the Jews split over Christ, some follow, the majority want this "Blasphemer" dead...they get what they want. He defies death.
Now, I went through that history to illustrate that Man is fallen, God wants mankind to come back into the knowledge of Him. He chose His people to be a light to the world: they lasted a while..then failed. Christ was sent as the final and supreme sacrifice...NOT to void out the law!!!!!! but to fulfill the atonement that all mankind needs.

THUS: Christians need to read the OT & NT...why?
To see how God has tried so many times to bring his children back to Him.

Did God act with vengeance and judgement in the OT? You bet!
How about the NT?  WHAT DO YOU CALL THE SACK OF JERUSALEM IN 70 ad? Yet he will always save a remnant ie Noah, Joseph, Nehemiah, Daniel...etc.
Will He act with Judgement and Vengeance to this day? Count on it! (Revelations)
What does He expect of us? Obedience....submission...sacrifice...courage.
**What about all those OT laws?
The Laws were made to point out the Fallen nature of Man...and the Holiness of God.
Romans 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
**Does that mean Christians should follow the letter of the law or the intent?
Romans 8:2+ "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
**Does that mean we can run around lawless since we're free?
Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal doby, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Paul saw Christ, was among the apostles, got some of the best training of that period...and wrote all  of his epistles during the lifespan of the apostles(John outlived him by 30+ years). I say this to refute an earlier comment that charged that Paul took the gospel of Christ off in a totally different direction.

Did this clarify things any?
Veritas!

(Edited by Hessian at 11:45 pm on Nov. 28, 2001)

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Like I said before - You want physical evidence.. I As a HUMAN BEING can't give it to you.. So whats the debate.. You can't break me down - andwhat - Jimmy - AP - Sxyp..

So Im letting this go..

 

[Jimmyrich]

Well frankly, Hessian, not really.  I'm not sure how this idea clears up justifying supporting some of the OT laws, but not all...I think you made a good point about the seperation between the Old and New Testaments and why we would appear to see two almost different Gods in the Bible.  And I think your points spoke mainly to the suggestion that God has changed his laws (or at least the focus) as time and circumstances have demanded it (harsher for Noah's crowd; more tolerant through Jesus). But STILL that doesn't address the specific issues brought up in the Letter.  What I'm asking here isn't "why the different faces of God in the Bible"--I think that question may have been brought up by andwhat. But the original idea here was for someone to address how it is that people will condemn something using the old testament and then not bother addressing something that, too, is labeled an abomination, such as the two crops, or just reverse their position, as is the case with slavery. I had hoped that THAT would be the question addressed, though Hessain you did a good job of illustrating the difference between the Old and New Testaments. And TT, again, if you're just gonna post nonsense and "you can't break me down" deflecting statements, I should hope you WOULD let this go...we're seeking knowledge, we're open for debate, we're engaging in intelligent conversation...fish or cut bait here...

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Your words of encouragement - speak highly of yourself - take your own advice.. To tell you anything - would be like taking a horse to water.. You seemly want to break God's ways to your own understanding - that would be impossible - When you were a child - did you understand why your parents said no to somethings and yes to other things?  

I didn't understand those things until I became an adult myself - and had children of my own.. Maybe knowing everything about God - won't happen until you die.. To answer your questions about has God changed from one way to the next - to read it You would think that if I was to grasp it in my own human being mind.  But as I continuely read the word it says - God is unchanging.. Meaning his love goes unchanged.. Thats my understanding of it..

Since you want flesh proof - Bush being the president - Im sure you don't agree with all the tactics he has placed with this war.  Well he may have his reasons for each and every decision he makes.. I may not agree with him.. But since he is in the white house instead of me - I have to accept that..

I have learned to accept differences between people.. Regardless if I like them or not.. You seem to want to pick it part - like its a machine or something.. You can't explain everything.. And if I was to point you to ever single verse in the bible for ever single question you have doubt about - you would still have doubt.. You have doubt in the bible.. Do you want me to say its the only reference to God that is on this earth.. Well you win that argument.. Its the only Book - that I know to tell me the Word of God.. Do I accept it as a individual - Yes I do.. Why - because I choose that for my way of life.. Just like you accept the way you are..