Apple vs the FBI

I meant more in a pure money sense, since it was suggested the companies would just end up monetarily fatigued and lose their court battle that way.

Gotcha.

No, that's not going to happen. Apple has a couple of extra bucks laying around.

If they ultimately lose in court - meaning, if there ends up being an in-effect order against them and they've exhausted possible appeals - I think they'll comply. They aren't going to defy a court order, I don't think, though the direct consequence of doing so would (I think) be limited to (perhaps escalating) fines. I don't think anyone could be arrested, not legally.
 
The government today asked the court for an indefinite postponement of the hearing that was scheduled for tomorrow, stating that it may have discovered a way to access the information on the iPhone in question without forcing Apple to do what it has been wanting Apple to do.

On Sunday, March 20, 2016, an outside party demonstrated to the FBI a possible method for unlocking Farook’s iPhone. Testing is required to determine whether it is a viable method that will not compromise data on Farook’s iPhone. If the method is viable, it should eliminate the need for the assistance from Apple Inc. (“Apple”) set forth in the All Writs Act Order in this case.

Accordingly, to provide time for testing the method, the government hereby requests that the hearing set for March 22, 2016 be vacated. The government proposes filing a status report with the Court by April 5, 2016.

My initial guess is that this means something like:

(1) The government realizes that it's likely to lose this legal fight as it's on pretty squishy ground arguing that the All Writs Act empowers the court to order Apple to do what the government wants Apple to do and it doesn't want a bad precedent (from its perspective of wanting an expansive understanding of that act in this context) established. Part of the point here was to establish a precedent that would help the government force third parties such as Apple to render extraordinary assistance, such as is being demanded here, going forward. The government doesn't want to let this case backfire on that point. It's better to stop the proceedings - on the eve of the opposing side getting to make its own legal arguments in court for the first time in this matter - than to risk a high profile loss. In other words, there may be some face-saving considerations involved.

(2) The government was hoping to be able to apply enough public pressure to force Apple to roll over and build the so-called back door before the government's arguments in favor of an expansive application of the All Writs Act were put to the test. That didn't work; Apple refused to submit to the government's tactics (something I will be eternally grateful for, regardless of how things play out from here). So with Apple not having blinked nor given any indication that it was going to, the government finally did.

(3) The government accomplished what it wanted in making this a high profile issue in a context that put its basic position - in favor of ensuring its own access to people's personal devices, when it feel it needs such access, going forward - in the most sympathetic light possible. So it can now walk back its legal demands or at least pause them. Hopefully, from its perspective, the rhetoric related to this situation (which, as I've suggested before, I think has been quite misleading) and the impressions created by it have set the stage for a successful push for legislation effectively requiring technology companies to build so-called backdoors into the devices and services that they offer consumers.

I think this means some combination of those things and perhaps others that I haven't mentioned. I think it's highly suspect that the government didn't file this motion under seal. If the situation is just as the government suggests - that they think they might have just, near the last minute, come up with a way to access the information on this iPhone but need some more time to test it - and if nothing else, such as the things I suggest, played into this decision, then I think the government wouldn't have wanted to disclose this new development publicly. I think that's the case for various reasons, to include because I don't think law enforcement - if it thought there was any reasonable chance that it might find something on this iPhone that would lead it to other suspects or prevent more undesirable things from happening - would want to tip other potential bad guys off that it was about to be able to access the information on this iPhone. More generally it wouldn't want to advertise that it had this capability going forward such that would-be terrorists would be on alert that they should take (what are essentially trivial) additional steps to make sure that their communications and such are secure when using iPhones and other smartphones in the future. From the start it was hard to take the government's intentions in this case as sincere given that it chose to go public when it could have pursued the legal remedy it sought under seal.
 
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GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
- on the eve of the opposing side getting to make its own legal arguments in court for the first time in this matter - than to risk a high profile loss. In other words, there may be some face-saving considerations involved.




record companies do this with there piracy lawsuits
... as soon as it looks like they are going to loser, they drop the case rather than allow case law to be built against there lawsuits
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
There may be another way: This just in.......

http://www.investopedia.com/article...i-postpones-apple-encryption-hearing-aapl.asp

In a surprising development, the Department of Justice said Monday in a court filing that the FBI may have found another way to bypass security measures on an iPhone used by San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook, perhaps eliminating the need to force Apple Inc. (AAPL) to write code which the company has called a "backdoor" to user's private data. The FBI says an unnamed third party has come forward with a method of unlocking the phone, leading a court hearing scheduled for Tuesday to be postponed

Read more: FBI Postpones Apple Encryption Hearing (AAPL) | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/article...ple-encryption-hearing-aapl.asp#ixzz43dsbOvl5
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook
 

stgislander

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
There may be another way: This just in.......

http://www.investopedia.com/article...i-postpones-apple-encryption-hearing-aapl.asp

In a surprising development, the Department of Justice said Monday in a court filing that the FBI may have found another way to bypass security measures on an iPhone used by San Bernardino shooter Syed Rizwan Farook, perhaps eliminating the need to force Apple Inc. (AAPL) to write code which the company has called a "backdoor" to user's private data. The FBI says an unnamed third party has come forward with a method of unlocking the phone, leading a court hearing scheduled for Tuesday to be postponed

Read more: FBI Postpones Apple Encryption Hearing (AAPL) | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/article...ple-encryption-hearing-aapl.asp#ixzz43dsbOvl5
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

Maybe they took John McAfee up on his offer. :shrug:
 

somdfunguy

not impressed
We'll see if it falls under this. More info in the article; didn't want to copy the whole thing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-hacking-iphone-now-tell-apple-how-you-did-it

The FBI’s new tactic may be subject to a relatively new and little-known rule that would require the government to tell Apple about any vulnerability potentially affecting millions of iPhones unless it can show a group of administration officials that there’s a substantial national security need to keep the flaw secret. This process, known as an equities review, was created by the Obama administration to determine if new security flaws should be kept secret or disclosed, and gives the government a specific time frame for alerting companies to the flaws.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
it has been reported the FBI 'may' have retained an Israeli firm to unlock the phone ....
 
it has been reported the FBI 'may' have retained an Israeli firm to unlock the phone ....

According to the federal procurement data site, Cellebrite USA was awarded a $15,000-ish contract by the FBI on Monday. Cellebrite USA is a U.S. based subsidiary of an Israel company that does this kind of thing - data extraction services and devices. So there's good reason to think that the FBI is working with them to get access to the information on that iPhone or is otherwise using some of their tech.

This is how it should work. The way that it's been speculated that this company (or its products) would be able to help the FBI get access to the information on that iPhone doesn't create the same risks or raise the same concerns as forcing Apple to do what the FBI wanted it to do would. And that's true when it comes to both the technological issues and the legal issues.

The FBI has the right to try to get access to the information that it wants in this case, no one (that I'm aware of) has argued to the contrary. Apple helped on that front to the extent that it reasonably could but, in this particular case, that wasn't enough. So the FBI has, apparently, turned to someone else that specializes in this kind of stuff - this kind of data extraction. Cellebrite is in the business of doing what the FBI needs done here and has developed technology to do it, Apple is not and has not. That being the case, what Apple would have had to have done to accomplish what the FBI wanted - or, at least, to do it in the way the FBI wanted it done - would have been very dangerous (for people who use secured information in general, and thus for society in general).

Had the government not tried to overreach legally and put on the misleading PR show meant to make Apple look bad before going this route, we might say that things are working as they should in this situation. But the possibility that Cellebrite (or anyone else known to the FBI) has tech that will be able to help the FBI get access to the information on that iPhone without the government using the All Writs Act to compel a third party to create new (and more dangerous) tech makes the governement's legal arguments even more clearly disingenuous. It means that the representations that the government was making (indeed, had to make) to the court in order to justify its request were... I'll just call them less than forthright.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
It means that the representations that the government was making (indeed, had to make) to the court in order to justify its request were... I'll just call them less than forthright.

Your penchant for understatement is noted...and quite familiar. :razz:
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
If this works and the Israelis get the info off the phone, Apple looks like a bunch of idiots.

:shrug:

why


Apple Keeps its hands clean ... see our iPhones are secure .... you have to pay a security company to hack one
 
Govt successfully breaks into San Bernardino shooter's iPhone

Good. That's how it's supposed to work. I mean, other than the disingenuous show that the government put on in the meantime trying to harm an American company's reputation to (1) punish it for not going along with the government's dangerous attempts to overreach its proper powers and (2) try to win public support for policies that would give it greater (and more dangerous) power in the future, that's how it's supposed to work.

Absent what the government did in court and in its PR campaign, this is a good result. This access doesn't represent the kind of threat that forcing Apple to do what the government wanted to force Apple to do would have. And the government has access to the information on the iPhone just in case there's something on there that might be helpful to law enforcement. Win, Win.

But again, the government releasing this information makes it even clearer that its actions in this situation have been duplicitous.
 
:shrug:

why


Apple Keeps its hands clean ... see our iPhones are secure .... you have to pay a security company to hack one

The important aspect isn't Apple keeping its hands clean. The important thing is that it means that the iPhone wasn't accessed the way the FBI wanted it to be - in a way that was dangerous (both technically and legally) for everyone's privacy and security going forward. The way that it is speculated that this would have been accomplished (i.e. with the help of Cellebrite) doesn't pose the same kind of general threat. And, depending on exactly how it was accomplished, I think there's a good chance it wouldn't work on current iPhone models anyway. Of course, as newer security mechanisms are created, those with an interest in extracted secured data develop new techniques to get at it.

The arms race relating to encryption and privacy and security continues and will continue. We only, as society (and on behalf of good actors) manage to stay slightly ahead because there are so many people working so diligently and relentlessly to keep it that way. That's part of the reason that it was so important that Apple wasn't ordered to do what the government wanted it to do, it would have meant the good guys in that arms race intentionally helping the bad guys in that ongoing arms race. (I'm not necessarily referring to the government as the bad guys in this context, I'm referring to all kinds of bad actors.)
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I wonder what deal was mad with the Israeli company ....
... considering the FED is supposed to turn over the details of any weaknesses found aka Vulnerabilities Equities Process
 
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