Are all men fallible?

[libby]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

 

[Pandora]

The post around here are getting stranger and stranger or I'm just... well...

Everyone is fallible to some degree, so what exactly are you asking?

 

[jrt_ms1995]

Yes, I'm fallible, and religion = mythology.

 

[Chasey_Lane]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

Do you need to borrow a dictionary?

 

[Starman3000m]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

Can anyone save themselves or do we each need a Saviour?

- For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

- There is none righteous, no - not one!

- The wages of sin is death.

- And God looked upon the earth and saw that it was full of wickedness.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16)

Jesus said: "I Am The Way, The Truth And The Life, No Man Can Come Unto The Father Except Through Me." (John 14:6)

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To do For God.

 

[libby]

Perhaps I should clarify that I am speaking to Christians only, as I have no idea how the charism might apply to any other faith.
Pandora,
I'm trying to ascertain how other consider the fallen human condition to affect what they believe, and how sure they are of what they believe.

Starman, I'd like your words, not paraphrased Scripture. If my question is unclear, feel free to let me know that.

Anyone who doesn't like the question or doesn't have an answer if free to ignore the thread, or post foolish comments for me to ignore. I'm happy to skip to answers that actually participate in the discussion.

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferarri

Are all men fallible?

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

I would say that I and all others are fallible in many ways but we are also fully capable of being completely accurate and true and to be certain of our correctness at the same time as being fallible to other things.

I do not accept that just because I and others do have fallibilities then we must never be certain of our proven truths.

Some Bible messages are unclear and even confusing but many messages are very clear and decisive.

Therefore I say that we can be fallible and perfect at the same time.

 

[libby]

I would say that I and all others are fallible in many ways but we are also fully capable of being completely accurate and true and to be certain of our correctness at the same time as being fallible to other things.

I do not accept that just because I and others do have fallibilities then we must never be certain of our proven truths.

Some Bible messages are unclear and even confusing but many messages are very clear and decisive.

Therefore I say that we can be fallible and perfect at the same time.

Can you give me an example of what you might be certain about? Again, I'm interested in matters related to Christianity, not being certain that 2+2=4.
Can you give me a Bible message that you think is "clear"?

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferarri

Can you give me an example of what you might be certain about? Again, I'm interested in matters related to Christianity, not being certain that 2+2=4.
Can you give me a Bible message that you think is "clear"?

Here are a few certainties:

Thou shalt not murder, do not steal, not lie, not covet, not lust, do not cheat, etc.

Those are not really simplistic examples because they are part of the bottom line to Christianity and to other faiths too.

Also certainties like:

Hate the sin but not the sinner, attack the message which is wrong and not the messanger, love what is right and hate what is wrong, etc.

These are some of my certainties while I do not expect others to live up to my ideals.

 

[libby]

Here are a few certainties:

Thou shalt not murder, do not steal, not lie, not covet, not lust, do not cheat, etc.

Those are not really simplistic examples because they are part of the bottom line to Christianity and to other faiths too.

Also certainties like:

Hate the sin but not the sinner, attack the message which is wrong and not the messanger, love what is right and hate what is wrong, etc.

These are some of my certainties while I do not expect others to live up to my ideals.

Okay, but what constitutes murder? Is abortion murder? What about self-defense? I mean, Jesus Himself did not resist His murderers, so if His actions are perfect, what does that say about us?
Stealing? Well, what if someone is hoarding? What if the rich man is not living up to his responsibilities (under Christianity) to take care of the poor, etc. Does a starving person have a right to steal an apple from your orchard if you won't give him one? After all, the orchard ultimately belongs to God, right?
Lying? Well, if terrorists came to my door and asked me where my children were, do I have to tell them?

I know these seem extreme, but is there a definitive answer? And if there are exceptions, who decides what the exceptions are? A fallible human person in the midst of a circumstance?

What are the definitions of "love" and "hate"? There are those who support homosexual unions based on a natural ideal of "love", and those who condemn them based on a supernatural understanding of "love".
So, we are back to square one. Who here is willing to claim that they have an infallible understanding of Christianity, and what is the Will of God?

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferarri

Okay, but what constitutes murder? Is abortion murder? What about self-defense? I mean, Jesus Himself did not resist His murderers, so if His actions are perfect, what does that say about us?
Stealing? Well, what if someone is hoarding? What if the rich man is not living up to his responsibilities (under Christianity) to take care of the poor, etc. Does a starving person have a right to steal an apple from your orchard if you won't give him one? After all, the orchard ultimately belongs to God, right?
Lying? Well, if terrorists came to my door and asked me where my children were, do I have to tell them?

Those are judgement calls and each person is capable of making right judgements.

We accept the fact that all human beings have a conscience or connection with God and therefore everyone does have the human capacity to decide right from wrong.

The only exception and not an absolute exception is those having severe mental illness.

To doubt God is understandable but to doubt right from wrong must be proven under scrutiny.

I know these seem extreme, but is there a definitive answer? And if there are exceptions, who decides what the exceptions are? A fallible human person in the midst of a circumstance?

Yes, a fallible human person in the midst of a circumstance must decide for our self.

What are the definitions of "love" and "hate"? There are those who support homosexual unions based on a natural ideal of "love", and those who condemn them based on a supernatural understanding of "love".

Seek the truth and ye shall find it.

There are definitive answers to every question and to know the answers then each one of us must seek it out.

So, we are back to square one. Who here is willing to claim that they have an infallible understanding of Christianity, and what is the Will of God?

Many people claim that and we each need to personalize our own beliefs.

 

[Starman3000m]

So, we are back to square one. Who here is willing to claim that they have an infallible understanding of Christianity, and what is the Will of God?

libby,
In the Holy Bible, Jesus presented the infallible understanding: He is The Divine Son of God, Lamb of God who lived a sinless life and whose shed Blood Atones for the sins of mankind, the Saviour of those who place their trust in Him and the Messiah of God who will return to reign from Jerusalem, establishing God's Peace on Earth for one thousand years.

Yet, Jesus did not say that His followers would be called "Christians" per se, as that was a descriptive term given in Antioch that described His followers.
Jesus said that those who trusted in Him would be called "The Children of God".

As for what the Will of God is; the Holy Bible also makes it quite clear:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

and, from the Book of John, Chapter 3:

14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Bible is pretty clear but many cannot comprehend for the following reason:

From 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4:
3: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

 

[libby]

libby,
In the Holy Bible, Jesus presented the infallible understanding: He is The Divine Son of God, Lamb of God who lived a sinless life and whose shed Blood Atones for the sins of mankind, the Saviour of those who place their trust in Him and the Messiah of God who will return to reign from Jerusalem, establishing God's Peace on Earth for one thousand years.

Yet, Jesus did not say that His followers would be called "Christians" per se, as that was a descriptive term given in Antioch that described His followers.
Jesus said that those who trusted in Him would be called "The Children of God".

As for what the Will of God is; the Holy Bible also makes it quite clear:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

and, from the Book of John, Chapter 3:

14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Bible is pretty clear but many cannot comprehend for the following reason:

From 2 Corinthians, Chapter 4:
3: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5: For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Starman,
What do you mean by "infallible understanding"? Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior is not accepted by all men, so what do you mean by "infallible understanding"? Now, I happen to agree with you about who He is, and His purpose on earth, but that's not the question. The question is, how do our limitations affect what we believe/perceive/know to be Truth?
You (and a few others on the forum) know where my religious conviction lay, so this would be a poor attempt at bait if that's what I were trying to do.
You say the Will of God is quite clear in Scripture. Well, maybe and maybe not. If His Will is clear, why is it not agreed upon by all Christians? Everything from homosexual unions, to drinking alcoholic beverages is in dispute between and within denominations and individuals.
So, wherever you stand on any one of myriad issues, are you willing to say that your stand is correct, free from error and infallibly inspired/revealed by the Holy Spirit?

 

[fredcaudle]

I am a believer in Christ, but would never claim perfection or the ability to be infallible. My beliefs understand all have sinned (I being the chief of sinners) and that Jesus Christ died that I may be forgiven and live. The change to me because of my belief will result in changed behavior - yet not perfect behavior because I remain in the flesh and not perfected.
The questions of which is murder or behavior that is appropriate... I believe as we live a life striving to Christ-like these questions will be balanced by what God would desire us to do instead of what we would like to do. Since God is author to life and death (my opinion - hundreds will disagree)... anything that preimpts God in this (i.e. murder) is wrong.
I've rambled enough... hope these are the type of responses you are looking for.

 

[Makavide]

I am fallible

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

We were all created in God's image, ergo we have the capacity to be infallible. However, because we were also given free will, we all are in some degree fallible. Does this mean we will never reach Heaven? I do not believe so. Every one, christian or not, has the chance to make it too heaven for God wants us all to join him there. As long as we keep to the two greatest commandments; love of God and love of neighbor as well as strive for infallibility, we can make it to heaven. Even those who have not been taught, or given knowledge of Jesus has the capacity to reach heaven by leading a good life and showing love of neighbor.

As it has been said before: Preach the Gospel everyday, and when neccessary - use words.

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferarri

Starman,
What do you mean by "infallible understanding"? Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Savior is not accepted by all men, so what do you mean by "infallible understanding"? Now, I happen to agree with you about who He is, and His purpose on earth, but that's not the question. The question is, how do our limitations affect what we believe/perceive/know to be Truth?
You (and a few others on the forum) know where my religious conviction lay, so this would be a poor attempt at bait if that's what I were trying to do.
You say the Will of God is quite clear in Scripture. Well, maybe and maybe not. If His Will is clear, why is it not agreed upon by all Christians? Everything from homosexual unions, to drinking alcoholic beverages is in dispute between and within denominations and individuals.
So, wherever you stand on any one of myriad issues, are you willing to say that your stand is correct, free from error and infallibly inspired/revealed by the Holy Spirit?

I see now that none of you want to know about doing right or wrong,

as those concepts are very clear and precise.

What you each want is how to mis-judge and condemn others in an even more self righteous way.

Being fallible or infallible with one-self means nothing if one is trying to do right, but fallibility and infallibility means everything when trying to criticize and control others.

Jesus said to clean the dirt out of your own eye and then you can see clearly, link HERE.

To clean up ourselves is how we learn to be infallible.

 

[Plan B]

Perhaps I should clarify that I am speaking to Christians only, as I have no idea how the charism might apply to any other faith.
Pandora,
I'm trying to ascertain how other consider the fallen human condition to affect what they believe, and how sure they are of what they believe.

Starman, I'd like your words, not paraphrased Scripture. If my question is unclear, feel free to let me know that.
Anyone who doesn't like the question or doesn't have an answer if free to ignore the thread, or post foolish comments for me to ignore. I'm happy to skip to answers that actually participate in the discussion.

Sister, their tone is indicative of our fallibility.
Our fallibility is part of what proves that love, faith and grace make God a sure bet.
After the Fall, we use our foibles to understand the glory that He would come down to dwell amoung us.
Pray on, esp for these guys...

 

[Giantone]

I see now that none of you want to know about doing right or wrong,

Maybe we do but sure as hell not from someone the likes of you.

What you each want is how to mis-judge and condemn others in an even more self righteous way.

Like you do about child support and abortion?

To clean up ourselves is how we learn to be infallible.

You need to go out and buy a mirror and work on yourself and your son and let everyone else alone.

 

[libby]

I see now that none of you want to know about doing right or wrong,

as those concepts are very clear and precise.

What you each want is how to mis-judge and condemn others in an even more self righteous way.

Being fallible or infallible with one-self means nothing if one is trying to do right, but fallibility and infallibility means everything when trying to criticize and control others.

Jesus said to clean the dirt out of your own eye and then you can see clearly, link HERE.

To clean up ourselves is how we learn to be infallible.

JPC,
Where the heck did that come from? People should be able to have a dialogue with one another without being accused of some ulterior motive. Great men through history have hammered out the meaning and implications of words and ideas, and it is a good and wise exercise.
Ultimately, I agree with your statement that as long as we are striving for perfection, IMO, God's mercy will be greater than our imperfections. However, He also knows our deepest motives and prejudices. He knows if we did, indeed, try to rid ourselves of them, or if we preferred to maintain the status quo because changing would be too difficult.
Did God make it possible for us to clearly know His Will for our behavior, or for our beliefs? If He did, why is it that everyone does not agree? Does the fault lay with the messenger or the message? As a Christian, my opinion is that the fault is with neither of those, but with the receiver.

 

[Kyle]

I'm surprised this wasnt followed by twelve pages of women posting "YES".