Are all men fallible?

[Roughidle]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

The idea is that the 10 Commandments spell out quite clearly how we are to conduct ourselves as Children of God. Our fallibility makes us inherently unable to live up to the Commandments. God knows this and through his Son we are forgiven. Now should you choose to accept this as truth you needn't worry your mind and instead place your worries upon God's brow. Be good and live in peace.
As Martin Luther says: "Pray and let God worry."

 

[Plan B]

Maybe we do but sure as hell not from someone the likes of you.

Like you do about child support and abortion?

You need to go out and buy a mirror and work on yourself and your son and let everyone else alone.

Why are you being so closed-minded?
Let debate happen.
If yr threatened, then bail...

 

[libby]

The idea is that the 10 Commandments spell out quite clearly how we are to conduct ourselves as Children of God. Our fallibility makes us inherently unable to live up to the Commandments. God knows this and through his Son we are forgiven. Now should you choose to accept this as truth you needn't worry your mind and instead place your worries upon God's brow. Be good and live in peace.
As Martin Luther says: "Pray and let God worry."

Roughidle,
I believe you are right. However, I'm wondering what other Christians think the consequences of fallibility are in their relationship with God. Meaning, I suppose, the difference between sincere ignorance (although I wish I could think of a more polite word) and ignorance brought on by our fallen nature and our innate desire to do our own will, protect our own comfort, and consider ourselves wise enough to discern the things of God.

 

[Plan B]

Simply love Him, the spirit will hear your groans

Roughidle,
I believe you are right. However, I'm wondering what other Christians think the consequences of fallibility are in their relationship with God. Meaning, I suppose, the difference between sincere ignorance (although I wish I could think of a more polite word) and ignorance brought on by our fallen nature and our innate desire to do our own will, protect our own comfort, and consider ourselves wise enough to discern the things of God.

Paul wrote that many will escape the fire, very singed and burned as if from a house fire.
In another Epistle he states that men should love their wives as Christ loved the Church, willing to die for her. Yet wives are only told to respect and obey their husbands, and the Bible does not tell them they must love them! We cannot fulfill these thru our will or power, but then you know that.
Our fallibility is manifested when we forget that that peace that passeth all understanding illuminates all these tough scriptures, and that is not so much consequences as it is salvation itself. Only His Word has the answer, and only the person of His Spirit can translate it, allowing us to live in the Kingdom of God (see the Lord's Prayer; Thine will be done...).
The Pope's new book, Jesus of Nazereth, really helped me with these concepts.
Simply love Him, the spirit will hear your groans we cannot express with words!

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferrari

Roughidle,
I believe you are right. However, I'm wondering what other Christians think the consequences of fallibility are in their relationship with God. Meaning, I suppose, the difference between sincere ignorance (although I wish I could think of a more polite word) and ignorance brought on by our fallen nature and our innate desire to do our own will, protect our own comfort, and consider ourselves wise enough to discern the things of God.

I like that last line.

I see no reason why we each can not discern all the things of God.

In fact I believe we are told to do so in many parts of the scriptures like seek the truth and find it link HERE.

Considering one-self as fallible in that regard is saying we can not do it,

but we are told to be perfect so we must be able to accomplish it without failing.

 

[godsbutterfly]

Roughidle,
I believe you are right. However, I'm wondering what other Christians think the consequences of fallibility are in their relationship with God. Meaning, I suppose, the difference between sincere ignorance (although I wish I could think of a more polite word) and ignorance brought on by our fallen nature and our innate desire to do our own will, protect our own comfort, and consider ourselves wise enough to discern the things of God.

I have seen many times what happens when people "play the God game" and I know it doesn't work. God knows our hearts and he knows insincerity. He knows when we are willfully sinning and when we are stumbling. I know I am fallible and imperfect. I also know that as long as I earnestly repent - meaning to turn away from my sin instead of just saying "Oh sorry, God" and keep on doing it - then the consequences of that particular fallibility are washed away.

 

[libby]

Paul wrote that many will escape the fire, very singed and burned as if from a house fire.
In another Epistle he states that men should love their wives as Christ loved the Church, willing to die for her. Yet wives are only told to respect and obey their husbands, and the Bible does not tell them they must love them! We cannot fulfill these thru our will or power, but then you know that.
Our fallibility is manifested when we forget that that peace that passeth all understanding illuminates all these tough scriptures, and that is not so much consequences as it is salvation itself. Only His Word has the answer, and only the person of His Spirit can translate it, allowing us to live in the Kingdom of God (see the Lord's Prayer; Thine will be done...).
The Pope's new book, Jesus of Nazereth, really helped me with these concepts.
Simply love Him, the spirit will hear your groans we cannot express with words!

It funny you should mention the instructions to spouses. Personally, I think obedience is much easier to accomplish than many other virtues. I once heard it said (and the context was childrearing, so take it for what its worth) that obedience ceases to be a "virtue" when the subordinate complies only after intellectual assent. IOW- if my daughter only does as I've said because she has been convinced that I am right, obedience is no longer the virtue involved. That does not mean that it is not good for a person to learn and accept things on their own, it's just that it becomes another virtue, perhaps, like wisdom. But obedience requires that we do not know, or understand what is being said, and that we simply recognize that the person in authority has been placed in said position by God.
Christ, and husbands, have a much harder job! Also, do I read you right? You think love cannot be accomplished through the will? I think that the will is the only way to accomplish love. If I rely only on my desire to behave lovingly, then ohhhhh, my poor husband! It is incumbent upon us to behave act in love in spite of how we feel. In fact, I think the recent revelations about Mother Theresa show the depth of her love, as opposed to the failure some like to make of it.
Anyway, that's a bit off topic, but worthwhile!

 

[libby]

I like that last line.

I see no reason why we each can not discern all the things of God.In fact I believe we are told to do so in many parts of the scriptures like seek the truth and find it link HERE.

Considering one-self as fallible in that regard is saying we can not do it,

but we are told to be perfect so we must be able to accomplish it without failing.

Isn't that what Adam tried to do? If we were capable of discerning all the things of God, He would cease to be above us in all things, it seems to me. No, I think we are not meant to understand all things of God. "His ways are not our ways" after all.
We are told to "be perfect", yes, but you don't really think that "we must be able to accomplish it without failing" do you?

 

[godsbutterfly]

I like that last line.

I see no reason why we each can not discern all the things of God.

In fact I believe we are told to do so in many parts of the scriptures like seek the truth and find it link HERE.

Considering one-self as fallible in that regard is saying we can not do it,

but we are told to be perfect so we must be able to accomplish it without failing.

The Passage says we are to worship Him in spirit and in truth. It does not say we are to consider ourselves wise enough to discern all of the things of God. Even Jesus said for us to be wise and vigilant for it is not for us to know the hour or the day when he shall return.I believe we are to strive to grow spiritually in our knowledge and understanding and that God will continue to open our hearts and minds so we can, but IMO we won't ever understand everything.

 

[~mellabella~]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

I am fallible. I mess up everyday. As does every other person on this earth. There is no such thing as reaching perfection while onthis earth. What are the consequences? It depends on the situation. Consequences can be short term, in the here and now; or long term, in eternity. Pertaining to my faith in Christ, well...its frustrating. Because I am told to strive for that perfection everyday...but I will always fall short. And normally when that frustration comes, so do my shortcomings. Because it takes a lot of faith-regardless of persecutuion and frustrations- to keep going every day in your walk with God. I don't see it as a religion, but a relationship. In the same way you would work things out with a spouse or a friend...its all about communication. Talking with God. And the verses sometimes are clear cut as to what God wants, but the confusion always come in when out finite minds try to understand the will and power of God.

 

[libby]

I am fallible. I mess up everyday. As does every other person on this earth. There is no such thing as reaching perfection while onthis earth. What are the consequences? It depends on the situation. Consequences can be short term, in the here and now; or long term, in eternity. Pertaining to my faith in Christ, well...its frustrating. Because I am told to strive for that perfection everyday...but I will always fall short. And normally when that frustration comes, so do my shortcomings. Because it takes a lot of faith-regardless of persecutuion and frustrations- to keep going every day in your walk with God. I don't see it as a religion, but a relationship. In the same way you would work things out with a spouse or a friend...its all about communication. Talking with God. And the verses sometimes are clear cut as to what God wants, but the confusion always come in when out finite minds try to understand the will and power of God.

Well, mellabella,

what I meant by "infallible" is not, are we "impeccable" (did I spell that right?) because, as you said, that is simply impossible. What I mean by "infallible" is, can we know for certain what God wants, which is different from being able to actually do it.
I'll give two examples. I'll pick these two because there are some who think that there are essentials and non-essentials to faith. I'll tentatively say I agree with that, but I reserve the right to revise that statement.
Anyway, Catholics, for instance, believe the the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and that one must eat His Body and drink His Blood to have eternal life, and many other denominations say it is symbolic and (presumably then) not an essential. Now, I am not interested in debating the merits of these positions on this thread, however the Presence of Christ's Body is not what I would consider a "non-essential" regardless of which side someone falls on, so what are the consequences of being in error on either side of the issue?
What about consuming alcohol? Some think it's a critical doctrine to abstain completely, other do not think so. Again, if one's own desire to drink is clouding one's ability to clearly see what Scripture says, if that's what it says, and how will that effect one on judgement day?
You are right that a relationship is necessary, and that means talking and listening, which to my mind, means contemplative prayer as well as active prayer.
Pertaining to my faith in Christ, well...its frustrating. Because I am told to strive for that perfection everyday...but I will always fall short. And normally when that frustration comes, so do my shortcomings. Because it takes a lot of faith-regardless of persecutuion and frustrations- to keep going every day in your walk with God.
There is nothing truer than this! If being a Christian is easy, we must be doing something wrong! I cannot think of a single Biblical example of following God the Father in the Old Covenant, or following God the Son in the New, was easy! Eleven Apostles were martryed and one was exiled for life. Hmmm...no cake walk, is it? But as Paul said, he considered the sufferings of this life as nothing (obvious paraphrase)!

 

[~mellabella~]

This is only an opinion...

...but I believe that what is true for some is not true for all. In other words...for some people they have to have communion. Its something they find necessary in order to feel that closeness with God. But maybe its different for other people. Times are not what they were in the days the scriptures were written. You have to apply them to your life as it makes sense in the current times. Now...about the alcohol comment...I think there is a difference in drinking to get drunk and just have the occassional glass. Over drinking is bad for your body, and your body is a vessel of God. So I suppose it really boils down to whether or not you care about how your vessel is kept for God to use?

ETA: Anything we do, as long as we turn from it and repent from it, won't matter anymore come judgement day.

 

[tiny tim]

I would like to know who here considers themselves fallible, and what are the consequences of that fallibility?
As pertains to religion, or faith, how does that effect what you think you know about Jesus Christ, the Bible, or the church (or Church)?
I'm not looking for hundreds of Bible verses here as a means of assurance, because that assurance only goes as far as ones infallibility goes. IOW- if you are fallible, the verses may not mean what you think they mean.
So, what say you??

i myself am not fallible in any way. Complete serious here. HOwever, I Have neveR Met anybody else who is such. that is not to say that such a being does not exist, but i, thusly far have never met one.

 

[JPC sr]

Mr. Ferrari

Isn't that what Adam tried to do? If we were capable of discerning all the things of God, He would cease to be above us in all things, it seems to me. No, I think we are not meant to understand all things of God. "His ways are not our ways" after all.

Adam knew what and he disobeyed and that is not discerning.

To learn and then know everything about God would NOT include reading God's mind or knowing His future actions or decisions as those are different aspects that are not included in knowing anyone.

On a job we can know our boss employer perfectly as to what they want and what they expect of us and we can know their weaknesses and their vulnerabilities and much more but they remain the boss and we the subordinate.

God could be compared to an employer (in a family operated busines) where the smarter and the more competant the employees then the better the business will operate.

Hiding and secrets and keeping people un-informed are the tools of the weak while the true God is powerful, and God invites us all in to His sanctuary AS His children and not as His pawns.

When the children are young then many things are hidden from their immaturities, but as they grow the hidden truths are given generously.

Adam and Eve did not take the time to learn through obediance and now we do not need to follow that leading, but many still do.

We are told to "be perfect", yes, but you don't really think that "we must be able to accomplish it without failing" do you?

Failing is okay, but to keep failing when we know it is wrong is not okay.

We are alowed to fail over and over and try again.

The deffinition of "perfect" is to be "useful" as in a hammer that pounds in the nail is a perfect hammer because it did its job. Some day the handle will break but it still served long as a perfect hammer.

Now the hammer is not perfect at anything else like it will not work as a knife or a spoon so one only needs to be perfect in what one does and nothing else.

Some people can be preachers and do it great but be too incompitant to drive a car, so then there would be a perfect preacher and a worthless driver in the same person.

When Jesus said to "be ye perfect" then it is totally possible for any of us and for all of us to do it.