Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid?

Bertha Venation

New Member
From And Say Hi to Joyce by Deb Price, author, columnist, and recent official bride after seventeen years of marriage

An engineering professor is treating her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant is a casual place where they both feel comfortable in slacks and cotton/polyester-blend golf shirts. But, as always, she wears the gold and pearl pendant he gave her the day her divorce decree was final. They're laughing over their menus because they know he always ends up diving into a giant plate of ribs but she won't be talked into anything more fattening than shrimp.

Quiz: How many biblical prohibitions are they violating?

Well, wives are supposed to be 'submissive' to their husbands (I Peter 3:1). And all women are forbidden to teach men (I Timothy 2:12), wear gold or pearls (I Timothy 2:9) or dress in clothing that 'pertains to a man' (Deuteronomy 22:5). Shellfish and pork are definitely out (Leviticus 11:7, 10) as are usury (Deuteronomy 23:19), shaving (Leviticus 19:27) and clothes of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19). And since the Bible rarely recognizes divorce, they're committing adultery, which carries the rather harsh penalty of death by stoning (Deuteronomy 22:22).

So why are they having such a good time? Probably because they wouldn't think of worrying about rules that seem absurd, anachronistic or - at best - unrealistic. Yet this same modern-day couple could easily be among the millions of Americans who never hesitate to lean on the Bible to justify their own anti-gay attitudes.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
There not...

...gay are they?

...her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant...

Oh, thank God!

:killingme:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Are religious objections to equality for gay Americans valid?

I vote No. Especially in light of that Episcopal Bishop and various other accepted homosexuals within the church. Anyway, the Bible is pretty clear that we mere mortals aren't the judges or the jury. That's God's job. All we're supposed to do is not associate with sinners.
 

Bertha Venation

New Member
Originally posted by vraiblonde
All we're supposed to do is not associate with sinners.
Many contend that gay people are "more 'sinnerly'" than most. I don't see it--I didn't even think so when I was a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist Christian--and this piece from Deb Price shows many excellent examples why I don't see it.
 
K

Kain99

Guest
I will disclaim all of this right up front! Just presenting the facts as Christians see them... for the sake of arguement. :wink:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10, NIV).

People who accept gay theology say that a different word should really be used where this Bible translation says "homosexual offenders." They say that the original Greek word that Paul uses, arsenokoite, refers to male prostitutes, not to two homosexual adults in a committed relationship.

To the average person, who has not been taught about this by their church and who doesn't know anything about biblical Greek, this argument sounds quite reasonable. But there are scholarly reasons for believing that the word Paul uses does refer to homosexual behaviour in general, not just male prostitution.


Broader Arguments

People who promote gay theology use a number of broader arguments to argue against the traditional view that homosexual behaviour is immoral. Here I will briefly discuss a few.

Gay Theology Argument #1: Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality. If he didn't say anything about homosexuality, it must not be that important to him. If it wasn't important to him, we shouldn't worry about it either.

Response: Arguing from silence, as this is called, can be dangerous. Jesus didn't say anything about flying airplanes into the sides of office towers, either. Does this mean that he doesn't care? Or that it's okay to fly planes into buildings? If he had been walking on this earth during the month of September, 2001, he might have said quite a bit about it. During his life, it was not relevant.

Similarly, homosexual behaviour was not an issue for the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. Their holy book, the Torah, was clear about it; it was punishable by death, as were adultery and other sexual sins. There was no particular reason for Jesus to talk about it.

Gay Theology Argument #2: The Apostle Paul didn't know much about human sexuality. He wouldn't have had any idea that some people might actually be born gay. As well, most of what Paul saw was either male temple prostitution, or the older man/younger man homosexual relationships that were common in Greek culture. It makes sense that he would say these things are wrong.

Response: What's the reality? Paul was not an uneducated peasant who lived his whole life in a little village. He was highly educated and lived in at least four cosmopolitan cities where he would have seen people from many cultures, religions and sexual backgrounds.

It is more likely that he would have understood that sexuality is complex. The people of his day were no strangers to sexual nuance. For example, in Matthew 19:12 Jesus refers to three different reasons why some men are eunuchs (a man or boy whose testicles are nonfunctioning or have been removed).

Paul would also have been familiar with the writings of philosophers like Plato, who distinguished between men attracted to boys and men attracted to other men. Regarding homosexuality, it's not reasonable to assume Paul didn't know what he was talking about.

Gay Theology Argument #3: The Bible was used in the past to justify slavery and oppression of women, and is still being used to justify mistreating homosexual people. Just as we have come to understand that the Bible does not endorse slavery or the oppression of women, we need to realize it does not approve of oppressing homosexual people either.

Response: Paul taught us that all people are made in the image of God, and all are equal before Him. Christians interpret this to mean that all people should be treated with dignity and respect, not as property. This principle applies to homosexual people.

The part that bothers me...................

Even though in the past people took quotes out of the Bible to justify slavery and the oppression of women, nowhere does the Bible say that being a slave or a woman is immoral. But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral.
 
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vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Originally posted by Kain99
But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral.
And Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And something about motes in eyes.

Good post, Kain. I like a real dissenting view. Makes for better conversation.
 

Doc

New Member
It's all Greek to me

"arsenokoite" (ar-SEN-oh-KOY-teh) is a Greek word unknown before its use by Paul. However, it appears to be composed of the words "arsane" which means "manly" and "koite" which means "couch" or "bed."

So, clearly, manly couches will NOT be allowed into heaven. Left open is the question of whether frilly pink girly couches will be granted Eternal Bliss.

(It's always nice to have a use for those schoolboy years spent slaving away learning Greek.)

Disclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible.
 

TripleJ

New Member
Re: It's all Greek to me

Originally posted by Doc
"arsenokoite" (ar-SEN-oh-KOY-teh) is a Greek word unknown before its use by Paul. However, it appears to be composed of the words "arsane" which means "manly" and "koite" which means "couch" or "bed."

So, clearly, manly couches will NOT be allowed into heaven. Left open is the question of whether frilly pink girly couches will be granted Eternal Bliss.

(It's always nice to have a use for those schoolboy years spent slaving away learning Greek.)

Disclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible.
Thanks for the helpful hints, I usually just throw them out:cheers:
 

Pete

Repete
Re: It's all Greek to me

Originally posted by Doc
[BDisclaimer: I wouldn't dream of implying that this and innumerable other examples of vague, sloppy language make the Bible an ureliable source to use as baseline for morality. I'm a big fan of the Bible. Here's my inspiring true story of how the Bible helped me. One day, back in grad school, I was walking to my lab, and there was one of those Gideons standing on the corner handout out little Bibles. Before I knew it, he thrust one into my hand. I looked down at it. Hmmm...about half an inch thick. Hundreds of very thin pages packed together would be a good way of absorbing low frequency vibrations....I ran back and asked him if I could have some more. "I know some folks that need these." He happily gave me like 20 of them. I ran back to my lab. See, I had this laser that I wanted to vary the height of in half-inch steps, and it had to be isolated from the mechanical noise of some diff-pumps attached to the table. I was just going to cut equal-thickness blocks of hard rubber out, but thanks to the stack of Bibles I now owned I saved a lot of work. Over the years they came in handy for leveling tables, propping up optics, and even insultating a cryogenic cooling system. So really I'm very thankful for the Bible. [/B]

I find this disturbing, I shouldn't but I do.
 

Sharon

* * * * * * * * *
Staff member
PREMO Member
Re: Re: It's all Greek to me

Originally posted by Pete
I find this disturbing
Makes you wonder why athiest azzclowns like Doc and TripleJ bother to post in the religion fourm, huh? :rolleyes:

They don't have anything constructive to say, but they sure look like hell-bent-for-leather-heathens. :jet:

P.S. I don't pay them any mind either. :wink:
 

cattitude

My Sweetest Boy
oooh---ohhh...wait...I've been waiting all morning to use this...here, Sharon...



If azzholes could fly, this place would be an airport!
 

Sharon

* * * * * * * * *
Staff member
PREMO Member
Originally posted by cattitude
If azzholes could fly, this place would be an airport!
...and with all that gaseous hot air they spew, there's no need for jetfuel. :cool:

Anybody got a light? :cool:
 

Bertha Venation

New Member
Originally posted by Kain99
I will disclaim all of this right up front! Just presenting the facts as Christians see them... for the sake of arguement. :wink: . . . . Even though in the past people took quotes out of the Bible to justify slavery and the oppression of women, nowhere does the Bible say that being a slave or a woman is immoral. But the Bible does say clearly and repeatedly that homosexual behaviour is immoral.
Kain, darlin', don't think I'm ignorning you. Just haven't had the time to reply to your post yet. :biggrin:
 

Doc

New Member
Originally posted by Sharon
Makes you wonder why athiest azzclowns like Doc and TripleJ bother to post in the religion fourm, huh

Could be because the religion forum is devoted to discussions of different ideas regarding religion. The idea that organized religion basically represents an adult version of playing make-believe is just as valid as any other.

Cue Rush:
<i>You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide,
You still have made a choice!

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear.
I will choose Free Will.</i>

Personally, I think you're just jealous, 'cause folks like TripleJ and I can sleep in on Sunday rather than sitting through butt-numbingly boring sermons telling us how to think.
 

Sharon

* * * * * * * * *
Staff member
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Doc


Personally, I think you're just jealous, 'cause folks like TripleJ and I can sleep in on Sunday rather than sitting through butt-numbingly boring sermons telling us how to think.
Wow! ...figured that out all by yourself, did ya? :killingme
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Doc
Personally, I think you're just jealous, 'cause folks like TripleJ and I can sleep in on Sunday rather than sitting through butt-numbingly boring sermons telling us how to think.
Don't go to dead churches. Find a group of believers where the Holy Spirit is the leader and it is anything but butt-numbing and boring.
 

TripleJ

New Member
geeeze? such hostility and name calling? is this representative of your christian values? I've read many different versions of the christian bible, there is allways some well intentioned person giving me one. I don't have any need for six copies of the KJV, so I usually toss them out. No need to get rude about it? Am I supposed to be the only one with a sense of humor? Anyway :cheers:
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
kain...you deserve some credit for a reasoned, (calm) response. I tend to let my sarcasm get in the way (and thus it detracts from my sentiments.
I realized that to address the "Biblical Violations" scenario I would actually need a discussion of somewhat serious give-& take...a forum posting doesn't cut it.

Perhaps one should look at it the way theologians for years have...
A. There were instructions given directly to individuals.
(Abraham was given a test to sacrifice his son...are we supposed to do the same????NO!)

B. There were instructions given to people that applied to a specific event (Are we all supposed to collect stones on the other side of the Jordan to commemorate the crossing?? NO!)

C. There were instructions given to the entire nation of Israel to apply to a condition or crisis (Are we supposed to mimic that since we're gentiles-3500 years later? NO)

D. There are very clear sentiments related to the nature of God's holyness & sovereignty...should we follow that? I say yes...it relates to the unchanging nature of God.

E. What about instructions to specific churches in the New Testament? (Ie head coverings, jewelry, teaching, use of gifts)
These have to be examined in a case -by- case issue to pass it through a test: Did other disciples/apostles urge the same thing?
Was it addressed to a specific condition that arose in a congregation? Will strict adherence to it verge on being a pharasee (whom Christ refered to as rotting tombs...totally committed to thousands of rules and ignoring the principles God desires)

Believe it or not we start to address the question of..."Were the promises made to Israel--transferred to the New Church when Israel went apostate?"...this I believe is an argument regarding dispensationalism (something that gets a bit off topic here).

God desires a people set apart, aware that the law cannot save them. He wants them to use the gifts He's given them to make the world aware of his sovereignty. At the same time he is aware that His message will bring strife, rejection, scorn, and abuse...all the things that faced his disciples. He urged them to "cast the dust off their feet" when faced with a people that outright reject His word.
He made it clear that HE is the final Judge...and there will be a seperation of the "sheep from the goats" or the "wheat from the tares." If a people hear His truthes...and reject them with any number of excuses....the fault will still lie with them..."I never knew you." Our call is to make people aware that they are facing the most eternal truthes...and eternal punishments.

So hearing from our Atheists that they are aware of scripture..have been given copies...and openly mock the authenticity--I guess that is just fine...we can do no more nor should we force the issue. Sometimes time, tests, and losses shake them up and they'll take a second look.

NEXT???
 

TripleJ

New Member
Here we go again, can't please everyone so, you got to please yourself...........:smile: If you took anything I have said as mocking, I apologize, please do not take that as changing the way I understand things or think though, I have researched your book, and have found it to be anything but authentic, I do respect your right to "believe" that it is though, and will leave it at that.....and for the record, I have have and enough losses, and tests in my life to last me several life times........time though is relative, I can not speak on that. I can only say that life altering events have had very little do with the way that I think and feel about things....sorry you don't have one of those people that have lost a loved one and cursed god for it, or have had a loved one on deaths bed saved at the last moment........It is only after careful research with both an open mind and heart, without and presupostion as to the outcome that I have come to understand things the way I have.....again, I respect your right to believe as you see fit, and in the future will take steps to avoid offending, though that will be hard to do in these forums as it seems that humor and sarcasim abide:cheers:
 
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