are you kidding me??? I am sooooo shocked!!!

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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
Sorry, but posting the same poorly researched and written anecdotal articles doesn't count really count. "My wife and I took a road trip without bothering to found out where and when we should charge and it sucked a lot!!!"

Whatever happened to that tidal wave of burning EVs that we were supposed to see? That never happened, did it?


We do agree that forcing people, or even providing incentives to buy them are Bad Ideas. Letting market forces guide the adoption curve will give the grid time to adjust. We agree that crappy EVs are not a good buy.
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Nice try Cleo! Ever wonder why most of the bad press is from folks and businesses that actually drive or service them and most of the good press is from the EV manufacturers and greenies. I suspect the folks that have them and the folks who service them have a little better handle on what is going on with them and from what I READ and hear it ain't good Cleo! Crappy EV's everyone of them, time will show who is correct, and it is a race against time, they will either improve them or they just become another fad here and gone.

Now don't get too depressed, even I believe that they have a use, Pizza delivery for one Mail delivery 2nd, in a city you may have a shot!
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
phreddyp said:
Nice try Cleo! Ever wonder why most of the bad press is from folks and businesses that actually drive or service them and most of the good press is from the EV manufacturers and greenies. I suspect the folks that have them and the folks who service them have a little better handle on what is going on with them and from what I READ and hear it ain't good Cleo! Crappy EV's everyone of them, time will show who is correct, and it is a race against time, they will either improve them or they just become another fad here and gone.

Now don't get too depressed, even I believe that they have a use, Pizza delivery for one Mail delivery 2nd, in a city you may have a shot!
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Actually no, I've not wondered that at all. Been around long enough to see the negative Nancy reaction to anything new. Oh my god fuel injection. Oh my god unleaded fuel. Oh my god cable TV. Here's a tip for you. If you haven't noticed the improvements that have happened in just the last 10 years, you haven't been paying attention.
 
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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
Actually no, I've not wondered that at all. Been around long enough to see the negative Nancy reaction to anything new. Oh my god fuel injection. Oh my god unleaded fuel. Oh my god cable TV. Here's a tip for you. If you haven't noticed the improvements that have happened in just the last 10 years, you haven't been paying attention.
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Making an improvement and making a good product are two different things.
Even a diehard like you should be able to recognize that.
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
BOP said:
Right...to turn them not into recycled EV batteries, but into the batteries that power our electronic devices. You know the ones; like my Android that will go dead every other day, even when I don't use it, which I don't.

Sorry, not impressed.
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Did you misread this bit? I know it took me two passes to make sure I understood it. Keep in mind, the recycler doesnt make new product, but sells those reclaimed minerals to the battery production industry to make new cells.
Interestingly, Redwood says its recycling process is already profitable for smaller batteries like those in cellphones and laptops or when using production waste. It anticipates that the same will be true once EV battery packs become available for recycling at scale.
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What this is saying is that right now, they can recycle the batteries in cell phones and laptops and make money. But they cant for the huge EV batteries simply because not enough of them have come up to be recycled. The notion of the car battery that dies at 80k or 100K is turning out not to be so true. Right now, the majority of EVs in this country are Tesla, and most of them are Model 3s and Model Ys which not really only enough to judge. Lots of early data says they will last a long time, the folks who run 30k in a year, Tesloop. But not enough to say statistically. As for the pouch and prismatics that most other makers favor? I wont even venture a guess, I have my doubts that the actual pouches they are sealed into are going to take more than 150 to 200k, but I could be wrong.
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
phreddyp said:
Making an improvement and making a good product are two different things.
Even a diehard like you should be able to recognize that.
Click to expand...

Well, you improve a decent product to make it good and a good product to make it great. /its called iteration, and some are better at tit than others. The Leaf was okay, the Bolt decent, Tesla better than either of them, but does cost more. Once legacy figures out the hard lessons that they need to unlearn everything, which Ford has finally begun to understand, they can start making really good ones. But the Mach-E and the Lightning are hampered with legacy processes. We dont know that GM has really learned that yet, the Hummers a sledge hammer trying to solve a trim nail problem. Hyundai and Kia, being younger, seem to be ahead of our legacy makers in iteration, but still need to work efficiency a bit more.

Did you see this article? Maybe not... Maybe believe Toyota?


www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Toyota Execs Geek Out Over Disassembled Tesla Model Y

Despite its size and considerable resources, Toyota has been slow to develop and release new EV models. That will likely change under its new CEO, but the automaker has a long way to go, as its recent tear-down of a Tesla Model Y highlighted its deficiencies in EV engineering. Toyota got ahold...
www.thetruthaboutcars.com www.thetruthaboutcars.com

One executive was taken by the Tesla, exclaiming, “taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It’s unbelievable.”
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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
Did you misread this bit? I know it took me two passes to make sure I understood it. Keep in mind, the recycler doesnt make new product, but sells those reclaimed minerals to the battery production industry to make new cells.


What this is saying is that right now, they can recycle the batteries in cell phones and laptops and make money. But they cant for the huge EV batteries simply because not enough of them have come up to be recycled. The notion of the car battery that dies at 80k or 100K is turning out not to be so true. Right now, the majority of EVs in this country are Tesla, and most of them are Model 3s and Model Ys which not really only enough to judge. Lots of early data says they will last a long time, the folks who run 30k in a year, Tesloop. But not enough to say statistically. As for the pouch and prismatics that most other makers favor? I wont even venture a guess, I have my doubts that the actual pouches they are sealed into are going to take more than 150 to 200k, but I
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It would be interesting to know how much they pay for the batteries they recycle now for profit and what they think they will pay for an EV battery. I am pretty sure they will be paying a fair amount for them.
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
phreddyp said:
It would be interesting to know how much they pay for the batteries they recycle now for profit and what they think they will pay for an EV battery. I am pretty sure they will be paying a fair amount for them.
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They will indeed pay. Consumer electronic batteries, those are already priced by the market, but I have no idea how. The real question is how much folks like LG, Tesla, Panasonic, and others will pay for already processed minerals.
 
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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
They will indeed pay. Consumer electronic batteries, those are already priced by the market, but I have no idea how. The real question is how much folks like LG, Tesla, Panasonic, and others will pay for already processed minerals.
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If they will is the question also.
 
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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
Pity the forum doesnt have a remind me feature like reddit.
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Here's a new EV tidbit for you. You may recall that in a former post I explained that my next door neighbor has two EV's and I explained that they were in the shop numerous times since they purchased them.
Well low and behold there is a brand new ICE Bronco in the driveway this morning. When I saw them and asked about it they explained to me that they just got tired with all the problems with the EV they traded in and had enough of the dealer hype which apparently were mostly lies. Of course they took a loss on it!
The second EV is brand new; they are not happy with it either but cannot even think about replacing it, with the hit they will take on it due to deprecation. I do not envy them one bit, they jumped in not realizing how shallow the water was.
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
phreddyp said:
Here's a new EV tidbit for you. You may recall that in a former post I explained that my next door neighbor has two EV's and I explained that they were in the shop numerous times since they purchased them.
Well low and behold there is a brand new ICE Bronco in the driveway this morning. When I saw them and asked about it they explained to me that they just got tired with all the problems with the EV they traded in and had enough of the dealer hype which apparently were mostly lies. Of course they took a loss on it!
The second EV is brand new; they are not happy with it either but cannot even think about replacing it, with the hit they will take on it due to deprecation. I do not envy them one bit, they jumped in not realizing how shallow the water was.
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IIRC, they didn't buy good ones. And if you recall, I told you anecdotal data isn't. But we were discussing if battery makers would buy minerals
 
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phreddyp

Well-Known Member
glhs837 said:
IIRC, they didn't buy good ones. And if you recall, I told you anecdotal data isn't. But we were discussing if battery makers would buy minerals
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I understand, I am giving you an update on a prior post, This is from the horses mouth, but feel free to ignore it just like everything else on this subject.
 
PeoplesElbow

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
phreddyp said:
I understand, I am giving you an update on a prior post, This is from the horses mouth, but feel free to ignore it just like everything else on this subject.
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I'm my opinion your neighbors are dumbasses if one gave them so much trouble they went out and bought another.
 
SamSpade

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
Something that comes to mind - if I am not mistaken - the original automobiles WERE battery operated. And some of them, even as long ago as the 1800's, did have batteries that could be recharged. I think they might have been like our regular ICE car batteries.

Well, why didn't they stay that way? Probably for the reasons people don't want them now. People needed power, speed, and a host of other features that a simple battery driven CART wasn't going to provide.

When they make an EV that can be fully charged in MINUTES - and I mean, like, two or three minutes - THEN they're worth considering.
 
PeoplesElbow

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
SamSpade said:
Something that comes to mind - if I am not mistaken - the original automobiles WERE battery operated. And some of them, even as long ago as the 1800's, did have batteries that could be recharged. I think they might have been like our regular ICE car batteries.

Well, why didn't they stay that way? Probably for the reasons people don't want them now. People needed power, speed, and a host of other features that a simple battery driven CART wasn't going to provide.

When they make an EV that can be fully charged in MINUTES - and I mean, like, two or three minutes - THEN they're worth considering.
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They were flooded lead acid batteries. At that time they were probably more powerful and more reliable than the IC engines of the time. Steam power was still king.

Up until nuclear submarines were battery powered when submerged.
 
glhs837

glhs837

Power with Control
phreddyp said:
I understand, I am giving you an update on a prior post, This is from the horses mouth, but feel free to ignore it just like everything else on this subject.
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Oh I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply giving it the weight that one data point in a sea of millions of data points should be given. You seem to want to apply this solo case as a universal constant but that's not how this works. I'm sorry that 100% of the EV owners you personally know are dumbasses that does not mean they all are. Just like any other group larger than one. There's going to be dumbasses and geniuses and given the curve a lot of average people. Your people didn't do research and made bad choices and then double down on those bad choices. Millions of people drive EVs every day and are quite happy with their experience. Some smaller subset do so and or not. And I say smaller subset because most people who buy EVs continue to buy them. That seems to be a point that you continually ignore.
 
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