Babies
- Thread starter Zguy28
- Start date
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
A baby born inherits sin automatically, through no fault of their own. But a sinner the same.
We are all born into sin through Adam (For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - Rom 3:23). We are all born dying because of the sin of one man.
It is hard to accept that an innocent baby is a born sinner, but we must accept it. It is only a matter of a short time before they will tell their first little lie, take that cookie after mommy tells them "no", etc.
Like you said, leave the "age of accountability" for another thread.
We are all born into sin through Adam (For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - Rom 3:23). We are all born dying because of the sin of one man.
It is hard to accept that an innocent baby is a born sinner, but we must accept it. It is only a matter of a short time before they will tell their first little lie, take that cookie after mommy tells them "no", etc.
Like you said, leave the "age of accountability" for another thread.
Zguy28
New Member
You know, something I've thought about:
If babies are born sinners, and in need of Christ's blood, but it is by foreseen choice that one is saved, what happens when they die before they are old enough for a conscious choice for Jesus?
I guess that goes into the age of accountability...HA!
The other thought that comes to mind is, since God is timeless, seeing everything simultaneously in eternity, how does God see us when we die? Does he see us or judge us as a 30 year old, or if a baby dies, does He see them at the judgment as a baby or some other form similar to an angel?
If babies are born sinners, and in need of Christ's blood, but it is by foreseen choice that one is saved, what happens when they die before they are old enough for a conscious choice for Jesus?
I guess that goes into the age of accountability...HA!
The other thought that comes to mind is, since God is timeless, seeing everything simultaneously in eternity, how does God see us when we die? Does he see us or judge us as a 30 year old, or if a baby dies, does He see them at the judgment as a baby or some other form similar to an angel?
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Babies are innocent until proven guilty. They are NOT born WITH sin in their lives, they are born with a "sin nature". If they were born with sin (as the RCC wrongly believes) then the age of accountability doesn't exist, Jesus was born with sin and someone else is responsible for our sins. David knew in 2 Samuel 12 v 23 that his baby went to "Abraham's Side" and David said he would "go to him".
A "sin nature" means, if we live long enough to know right from wrong (we reach our age of accountability), we WILL sin because we all have the potential to. It doesn't mean we're sinners from the start because many babies don't live long enough to sin.
A "sin nature" means, if we live long enough to know right from wrong (we reach our age of accountability), we WILL sin because we all have the potential to. It doesn't mean we're sinners from the start because many babies don't live long enough to sin.
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Starman3000m
New Member
The Bible states that the sin-nature of Adam has been passed on unto all mankind. (Romans 5:16-19) Thus, the newborn has that fallen-nature from the start, however, they will not have yet personally committed an act of sin against any of God's Laws for which they could be personally held accountable.
Therefore, the difference between an infant/very young child and an adolescent is that of the child not yet understanding right from wrong and the adolescent literally having the comprehension and reasoning ability to discern right from wrong - good from evil.
About the children:
Jesus' comments about the innocence of children and His acceptance of them when His Disciples wanted to keep them away from Him certainly indicates that God views children in a higher esteem than adults who are at the age of accountability.
It stands to reason by Christ's words that when an infant or young child dies, for whatever reason, the child will be welcomed into the Kingdom and loving care of God. God will not hold them accountable for something they did not do because the child will not have yet become old enough to knowingly commit an act of sin against God.
On the other hand, according to Calvin's view of predestination, some of the children who die in infancy or at a very young age will go to Heaven while others will go to Hell because God has already "predestined" their eternal destiny. Do you really believe God would send an innocent infant or very young child to Hell, Zguy28?
Zguy28
New Member
I don't believe children are innocent, nor that God sees age as a determining factor in judgment. So your question isn't even valid.
Dondi
Dondi
What crime has an infant baby committed, other than crying for food or from a wet diaper?
Sin isn't some "thing" that is pinned to one's heart, it is a conscious act of disobedience against God.
Zguy28
New Member
Thank you.
The questions I always ask when somebody says a new born is innocent are:
Was King David innocent at birth? (see Psalm 51)
If death is the wage of sin, why do newborn's die?
Now I know the second one can be explored with concepts of spiritual vs. physical death, but that cannot account for physical death being the result of sin.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
This is a very tough, Biblically non-defined topic. God knows the answer, and has the power to save all he deems worthy.
To me, believing we have a loving, kind, merciful, and righteous God, and placing with Him the unborn, newborn, and all those that have not yet reached an age of understanding (very young), or are incapable of reaching (retarded or mentally handicapped), would be the logical answer for one who loves the little children, both mentally and age-wise.
It should be all about God, not man.
John 1:12-13:"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God."
Romans 9:16: "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs,
but of God who shows mercy."
To me, believing we have a loving, kind, merciful, and righteous God, and placing with Him the unborn, newborn, and all those that have not yet reached an age of understanding (very young), or are incapable of reaching (retarded or mentally handicapped), would be the logical answer for one who loves the little children, both mentally and age-wise.
It should be all about God, not man.
John 1:12-13:"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God."
Romans 9:16: "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs,
but of God who shows mercy."
Starman3000m
New Member
As previously stated, all children are born with the sin-nature that has been passed along through Adam. However, if an infant or very young child dies before having the opportunity to comprehend and/or know about forgiveness of sin through the Gospel Message of Christ do you then believe God will punish them by sending their soul to eternal damnation?
Zguy28
New Member
To be honest, I don't know. If I am strictly consistent with TULIP, then I would say that a baby is no different than an adult. Either they are Elect or not.
But I'm not sure if that is correct. I don't really know. I do know that God loves children, and that we can bank on His justice.
I found an interesting take on this from John MacArthur (a Calvinist no less). It's a good read.
The Salvation of Babies Who Die, Part 1
Starman3000m
New Member
It appears that John MacArthur also agrees that babies don't "actually sin":
However, the problem that Calvinism still presents is that even though babies who die in their infancy "don't actually sin" (as agreed to by MacArthur)there is the teaching that apparently God would send some of those infant souls to Hell because they had been predestined for Hell from the beginning.
Is that what you believe as well Zguy28?
PsyOps
Pixelated
In all of these things related to sin vs. death is spiritual. That’s why Jesus forgives our sins to obtain eternal life; spiritual eternity.
Zguy28
New Member
Then why did sin bring physical death into the world? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
Zguy28
New Member
Think on this. Romans 1
For what can be known about God is plain to them [that is, to mankind] because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Therefore, they are without excuse.
God is sovereign and just. All peoples inherit sin from the point of conception (Psalm 51). Yet God says that if His "eternal power and divine nature" had not been visible or able to be comprehended, man would have an excuse.
I don't think babies are able to God's eternal power and nature, hence they have an excuse, as the Scripture says.
Whether that means all babies that are predestined to die (do we agree that God knows or determines our life-span?) in infancy are Elect or that they get "off the hook" at Judgment, I'm not sure. But one way or the other God works it so they receive mercy, not eternal death, in order for His word to be true and consistent with His foreknowledge.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Because God said so (Gen 3:19 - "In the sweat of thy face, shalt thou eat bread, til thou returneth into the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.")
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, you know the standard burial statements.....
Adams' sin caused he, Eve and mankind forever to know that they, and we, are naked. Exposed. God provided them coats of skins, from nowhere else but slain animals (Gen 3:21). Every living being on earth is born dying.
Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgement".
Adam and Eve were no longer perfect. They were now humans, dying as we all are, caused by the sin of Adam.
That's why, according to Gods word, sin brings physical death, with only two exceptions that I am aware of: Enoch (Gen 5:22-24, Heb 11:5) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:1).
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Are you listening to yourself? So how then do babies get forgiveness to enter Heaven? And how is it determined which ones don't get forgiveness?
Those verses can't be taken literally. "All" doesn't always mean every.
If they were literal, then you'd have to be ok with Jesus being born with sin? He'd have to be if ALL have sinned. How do babies get forgiveness then? You're ignoring the context of this issue. If all are sinful, there is NO age of accountability, someone else is responsible for our sin and Ezekiel 18 should be removed from Scripture.
Zguy, you can't have it both ways. First you say they're w/o excuse, then you say they have an excuse?
You're ignoring a lot of context again...Zguy28 said:
Zguy28
New Member
You realize that you and Starman are drifting dangerously close to heresy right? A heresy officially condemned in the 5th century.
Pelagianism|What is Pelagianism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Starman3000m
New Member
Yo, Zguy28, where have ItalianScallion and I ever denied the inherent original sin that has been passed unto all mankind through Adam???
Here is an excerpt from the article you cited:
We have both posted Scripture quite a few times that states all have sinned and that the whole world is in condemnation and that sin was passed down from Adam.
With that in mind, The Bible states that Jesus came to save the world and that all who believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16-18)
Calvinism places a limitation on Jesus' work on the Cross by teaching that Christ's Atonement is not really offered nor available to all sinners only to a select group of mankind.
Calvinism is not just dangerously close to heresy - it becomes heresy through negating God's Love for the whole world and God's Will that no one perish at all. That is the reason for the Atoning Blood of Christ freely offered and available to all who will accept Him as Lord and Saviour. Not all people will accept Christ but the Bible gives the reason why and that is because they chose to love the world and their evil deeds rather than repent of their wayward ways and turn to God.