Baptism

[2ndAmendment]

People have faith, but it's their chosen religion that dictates what that faith believes in.

That is why it is imperative for people to read the Bible. Know what it says as opposed to what some human says. Then decide whether what the denomination or non-denomination teaches coincide with what the Bible says. If they don't jive, find an new place to worship God.

I know, this leads back to the discussion of "men wrote the Bible." True, but they were men inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. I'm not going to rehash this. If you want to know what I think about it, search this forum.

 

[vraiblonde]

SO Hitler has a place in heaven sitting next to God, and Lenin, and Marx?? The people that turned the gas valves on in the showers at Dachau and Auschwitz? As along as they prayed after they were ok?

How about Jeffrey Dahmer, or the sex ofender that killed the little girl? They all get to enjoy eternal life sitting at the right hand of God? I mean as long as they didn't say anything bad about the Holy Spirit right?

Everyone deserves forgiveness if they ask with a pure heart and honest desire to be clean again.

Haven't you ever done something terrible and asked whoever you did it to to please forgive you? That you honestly were sorry and wanted to make amends? Granted, it probably wasn't murder, but it's the same concept. If you're honestly sorry and not just saying it to get out of trouble (which is what most people do), then forgiveness should be granted.

I don't believe in God, but I think you die happier when you acknowledge your wrongs and try to make honest amends. It's highly doubtful that Hitler and Dahmer sought forgiveness with an honest heart. But who knows? I don't and it's not my decision to worry about.

 

[itsbob]

I don't know. Did they repent of their sins before they died and accept the forgiveness of God? Had they blasphemed against the Holy Spirit? I don't know the answer to those questions. I do know what Jesus said to the thief on the cross.

Like I said, turn on the gas, kill a miliion Jews, pray and walla.. you're in heaven.

I don't think so. Why would anyone bother living a good just life with little sin if they knew all the had to do was say. "I'm sorry, forgive me" just before they took their last breath.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Like I said, turn on the gas, kill a miliion Jews, pray and walla.. you're in heaven.

I don't think so. Why would anyone bother living a good just life with little sin if they knew all the had to do was say. "I'm sorry, forgive me" just before they took their last breath.

Only read the part of my post you wanted to argue with, huh?

People revert to who they are in life. I doubt there are very many true deathbed conversions. Some, sure, but many? Probably not. Just wishful thinking by the Christians in the family.

 

[vraiblonde]

He presents himself as a servant of God, as he shears his flock of their money. He does not present himself as what he really is, a charismatic entertainer.

Not that I glue myself to his sermons every weekend or anything, but I have no recollection of him ever asking for money. That's Oral Roberts you're thinking of.

Zig Ziglar used to tell the story (which he probably made up) of one of his fans asking how Zig reconciled his talk of Christ and God with selling people stuff they don't need in order to become rich ("ye cannot serve God and mammon"). Zig replied, "God doesn't object to us becoming wealthy - he just wants Christians to have the lion's share." In his tapes, this line is always met with enormous applause.

I have never seen Joel Osteen engage in this sort of chicanery.

 

[vraiblonde]

Like I said, turn on the gas, kill a miliion Jews, pray and walla.. you're in heaven.

No. You cannot simply "ask" for forgiveness. You have to mean it in your heart and truly be sorry for the things you did, not just that you got caught.

 

[itsbob]

Not that I glue myself to his sermons every weekend or anything, but I have no recollection of him ever asking for money. That's Oral Roberts you're thinking of.

Zig Ziglar used to tell the story (which he probably made up) of one of his fans asking how Zig reconciled his talk of Christ and God with selling people stuff they don't need in order to become rich ("ye cannot serve God and mammon"). Zig replied, "God doesn't object to us becoming wealthy - he just wants Christians to have the lion's share." In his tapes, this line is always met with enormous applause.

I have never seen Joel Osteen engage in this sort of chicanery.

And how did he pay for his basketball stadium??

 

[itsbob]

Only read the part of my post you wanted to argue with, huh?

People revert to who they are in life. I doubt there are very many true deathbed conversions. Some, sure, but many? Probably not. Just wishful thinking by the Christians in the family.

You want to debate christianity over a script from a movie?? Now that there is some mighty deep research!

 

[vraiblonde]

And how did he pay for his basketball stadium??

Well, for one thing he's got a TV show for which I'm sure he gets paid, and he's authored a book or two that have made money for him.

And he surely gets donations from his fans. But, again, I've never heard him tell his audience to send him money.

 

[LooseTooth]

Yeah, I watched pat of an interview (Larry King Live) with Osteen and he was asked why he didn't ask the viewers to tithe. I don't clearly remeber his answer. A quick search tells you that he is under great scrutiny for the amount of money his church takes in from the members and for the shamless self promotion he performs using it (even though he doesn't take a salary). Also there is a fair amount of resentment over the money he has made off of his books.

Well, for one thing he's got a TV show for which I'm sure he gets paid, and he's authored a book or two that have made money for him.

And he surely gets donations from his fans. But, again, I've never heard him tell his audience to send him money.

 

[vraiblonde]

Yeah, I watched pat of an interview (Larry King Live) with Osteen and he was asked why he didn't ask the viewers to tithe. I don't clearly remeber his answer.

The interview transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/20/lkl.01.html

He doesn't ask them to tithe because he doesn't need to.

OSTEEN: The church supports it.

KING: How does the church get the money?

OSTEEN: Well, they just give. There are just a lot of them, they're faithful, they're loyal people, they believe in giving. And the other thing too, what's interesting, Larry, we don't ask for money on television. But people see your heart. People send in money like you wouldn't imagine to underwrite it.

KING: Really? Without your ever saying order this medal?

OSTEEN: Exactly. It's a testament to, you know, I think if people can see your heart is right. I'm certainly not the only one. But I don't get on there and beg for money. People send it in. You'd be amazed.

 

[itsbob]

The Bible teaches that spiritual maturity
includes developing the habit of regular giving.
Giving your tithe, the first poriton of your
income, shows that God really has first place in
your life. Sacrificial giving, those gifts above
and beyond the regular tithe, stretches your
faith and makes provision for God to show Himself
faithful to you.

Yes, I want to make a commitment to the Champion's Legacy Building Fund, over and above my tithe. Please check one of the following:


Taken off of his website..

He not only wants you to tithe your 10% but above and beyond for SPECIAL projects..

 

[itsbob]

I already have a pledge and feel God challenging me to INCREASE my pledge.


AND one of your options to give more..

 

[itsbob]

The Bible teaches that spiritual maturity
includes developing the habit of regular giving.
Giving your tithe, the first poriton of your
income, shows that God really has first place in
your life. Sacrificial giving, those gifts above
and beyond the regular tithe, stretches your
faith and makes provision for God to show Himself
faithful to you.

Yes, I want to make a commitment to the Champion's Legacy Building Fund, over and above my tithe. Please check one of the following:


Taken off of his website..

He not only wants you to tithe your 10% but above and beyond for SPECIAL projects..

I'd say this is not only asking people to tithe their 10%, but telling them to be MORE desrving then the lolife 10% givers you should send more..

 

[itsbob]

AND he even has a WALL OF CHAMPIONS for those that give $2500 or more OVER and above their tithe..

 

[LooseTooth]

Hey I'm not going to bat for this dude by any means. I just happened to remember a comment from an obscure interview.

The Bakers forever tainted the televangelists. Now if a good one pops up he/she is fake from the beginning in many people's eyes.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You want to debate christianity over a script from a movie?? Now that there is some mighty deep research!

I don't debate Christianity; it is pointless. People either believe or they don't.

You, as you often do, chose to ignore the intent of the post for the sake of debate or argument. Did you not get that I said the incident in the movie often plays out in real life? People revert to who they have been all their life at the end of their life unless there has been a true change of spirit.You, from what I gather from your posts, have chosen your intellect over faith in God. So, on spiritual matters, we have no common ground. As the Bible says, matters of the Spirit are foolishness to those not of the Spirit.

 

[vraiblonde]

AND he even has a WALL OF CHAMPIONS for those that give $2500 or more OVER and above their tithe..

So what? In contrast, he also talks in his sermons about not giving in to the temptation of competing and "keeping up with the Joneses" because you don't really know what the Joneses lives are like. They may have a big house and a new car but their family is falling apart.

Regardless, I like Osteen's message of hope. It's a much better way to live your life than bitter cynicism. Bob

 

[dems4me]

So what? In contrast, he also talks in his sermons about not giving in to the temptation of competing and "keeping up with the Joneses" because you don't really know what the Joneses lives are like. They may have a big house and a new car but their family is falling apart.

Regardless, I like Osteen's message of hope. It's a much better way to live your life than bitter cynicism. Bob

Ive bought his book... soo far its pretty good!