Larry Gude
Strung Out
No. I'm not fine with abortion at any stage. Late term takes the barbarity to the extreme. However, the issue isn't about what I am fine with. The issue is the woman's...choice.
Begging the question and how it relates to views on abortion
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No. I'm not fine with abortion at any stage. Late term takes the barbarity to the extreme. However, the issue isn't about what I am fine with. The issue is the woman's...choice.
I think it's fairly obvious losers, failure to launch, dirtbags, scumbags, generally no good people, should be actively encouraged to not procreate. If the race as a whole was dying off and every live body was required to continue the humanity that would be one thing. As it is we are awash in human bodies and a certain percentage are scum and as a general rule they were spawned by scum.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
So, what is America? I am sure some of the founders didn't like abortion but I am just as sure that some accepted it as up to the mom. You can be, well, I can be, damn sure that a nation founded on slavery, narrow women's rights and the ability to indenture your kids to someone else very much did not spend any time pondering whether abortion was right or wrong. Hell, lots of kids didn't survive birth to begin with. This doesn't mean they saw life as cheap. They just saw it as practical.
Up until, what, 20-30 years ago babies suffered 'Sudden Infant Death Syndrome' because doctors saw it as part of their duty to cover for moms who killed their infant. What else do you do, put her in jail?
So, I do not think the purpose of the US was to control one another. Especially something so personal.
This_person
Well-Known Member
As a citizen, are you ok with a law that allows for it?
This_person
Well-Known Member
I wasn't equating them.
Helmet law controls what YOU do to YOU. Abortion law controls what person A does to person B.
But it does it by controlling what YOU do to YOU.
digitallest
New Member
I think we took a wrong turn by making abortion both a pillar and flag. People are rallying around it as an emblem of womens health and rights, when it really is a medical procedure performed after the fact. I wish we were more motivated to prevent unwanted pregnancies from occuring in the first place. Instead of making this procedure into a pinnacle acheivement, I wish we could do better.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Which is why I disagree with helmet laws.
Actually I was talking about abortion.
Agreed. But good luck with that. We already have excellent birth control methods in this country, and most health insurance covers it. No health insurance? Trot your butt down to Planned Parenthood and they will hook you up with contraception for a reduced cost or FREE. All these abortions every year tell me that it's just pure irresponsibility and laziness. Everyone knows what causes pregnancy, and everyone knows there are ways to prevent it or at least minimize the risk greatly.
Apparently these chickies don't want to take those precautions, so.... :shrug: What else can be done?
This_person
Well-Known Member
Admittedly, I don't understand.
Abortion isn't about controlling what one person does to herself. Abortion kills a separate person.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
So? You gonna arrest the abortionist? Jail them? Execute them? Arrest mom as an accomplice and accessory? Jail her?
All you people who think abortion should be illegal, how far you willing to go? Hang mom? Lethal injection? Abort her? Retraining? A fine? Stern talking to? You gonna MAKE her have that baby? Make her take care of her diet and exercise for 9 months? Make her go to her check ups?
Or is this just another version of the anti gay thing? The anti black thing? The anti woman thing? They SHOULDN'T be gay, ARE inferior, should NOT be allowed to vote? Just another control mechanism to make people do as you think is proper in this land of the free and home of the brave?
It make sense to be to place limits on people based on age, to some extent. Diving age, voting age, drinking age, drug age based on the reasoning that learning and experience take time and then we turn people loose to be full citizens. Well, what then if they choose to do things YOU don't approve of? YOU think are wrong? Why, slap some more controls on them all, of course! They didn't learn what YOU think they should. They don't have YOU morals, YOUR values therefore, they are defective, inferior, immoral, whatever.
You can take the position that that unborn baby has a right to your protection based on its constitutional rights, but you can not get there without violating the moms rights. So, ask yourself how much you really support rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the core law of our land, of freedom, and how much you just like controlling other people. Abortion is barbaric. So is war. So is our 'war' on drugs. So is a lot of our social policy. I don't object to people wanting to control one another.
I just object to then laying any claim to being for freedom and liberty and using the Constitution as the basis for the anti abortion argument. And stop objecting to people wanting to control your wallets and start embracing them as your fellow travelers in life. They just wanna control other people, too.
Time after time after time, these issues boil down to, on the one people wanting to
Larry Gude
Strung Out
How in the flying hell can you say that??? She HAS to carry the baby. She, I presume, has to take care of her self, yes?
Maybe I am missing something. Maybe you have a plan to make women not abort that doesn't include force. I'm all ears.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
How is it NOT an emblem of a woman's health and rights? Having a baby is pretty demanding on her body and it damn sure is about HERE rights to choose to abort or not. I'd like it if women always chose to have the baby and everyone lived happily ever after. If I believe in freedom AND the responsibility that comes with it, I don't get to choose.
She does.
I am all for education, options, support and just like I'd rather people not be addicts and junkies I'd prefer they choose life.
Choose.
Roe v Wade is AWFUL law but it's what we do. It would have been better had it been decided reasonably. It wasn't. However, at the end of the day, bad law or not, it IS about expanding freedom, not limiting it. It doesn't MAKE me buy anything or do anything. Other than have the courage and faith in my beliefs in freedom that women can and should be in charge of that choice. It doesn't force me to like it but it does require I support what I claim to believe in.
This_person
Well-Known Member
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.
What do we do with parents who are criminally negligent to their children to the point their children die now? If someone would take an ice pick to their child's skull, or pay someone else to do that, what would we do to them? I'm guessing the same should be done here for the parent or hired killer.
If you think killing innocent children for the crime of being inconvenient to the mother is the same as "anti-gay", I'm not sure how one could have a reasonable conversation with you about this.
That's just bunk. The mother CHOSE to take action that could result in having a baby. She WILLINGLY accepted the responsibility by taking the action. What you're suggesting is that people could drive down the street in a semi wandering from lane to lane, and if they happen to hit somebody that's just too damned bad because telling them they have to drive in just one lane violates their rights. It's telling someone that if they are so stupid as to get in the way of your bullet when you randomly shoot in a crowd, that's their problem because telling you that you can't shoot your AK in a crowd violates your rights. It's idiocy at its finest. This was a willing action that had a known percentage of causing a child, and you're saying it's just fine to grind that child up in a blender because it was so stupid as to be in her way. You're far too smart a man to believe what you're saying. You've clearly been brainwashed.
No, it boils down to it being wrong to kill someone. Saying that it infringes upon her to face the consequence of her action is horse####, and you know it.
This_person
Well-Known Member
It's not "force" for her to live with the consequence of her actions. You're saying it's forcing someone to live in poverty because we don't let them keep the diamonds they stole from the jewelry store - how can you not see that? This is the consequence of actions she and the father took. Are we forcing her to have sex with the father? Because, if we are, your argument makes sense. Then it would be rape, and she would have no responsibility for the action. In that <0.5% of the time, while I find it abhorrent, her personal rights win and it would be forcing her to have an unwanted child. Her primacy of rights wins in that case. She chose the action that had numerically known probabilities of producing a child. She and the father have to live with that. That could mean raising the child, as Vrai fears, or it could mean giving the child up for adoption - there are long waiting lists for babies to be adopted.How in the flying hell can you say that??? She HAS to carry the baby. She, I presume, has to take care of her self, yes?
Maybe I am missing something. Maybe you have a plan to make women not abort that doesn't include force. I'm all ears.
It's not ok to kill people because they're inconvenient. Over 90% of the time, that's the reason the child is killed. It's not rape, it's not incest.
I ask you again, as a citizen, are you ok with a law that says it is ok to kill the child as it is being born? Do you think that is an acceptable law to have on our books?
PsyOps
Pixelated
How in the flying hell can you say that??? She HAS to carry the baby. She, I presume, has to take care of her self, yes?
Maybe I am missing something. Maybe you have a plan to make women not abort that doesn't include force. I'm all ears.
This argument goes both ways… How in the flying hell can anyone say that the little blob in the mother’s womb isn’t a human life, its own soul, its own self, entitled to the same rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?
We’re never going to stop murder, robberies, rapes, etc… but we still have laws that hold people accountable who commit those crimes. I honestly don’t have a good answer for abortion. I don’t want to start rounding abortion doctors and mothers having a abortions and throwing them in prison. But we do have to come to a point where we recognize this whole thing has been, and is heading in a really bad direction. This is just one indication of what a depraved society we are becoming.
Rather than throwing these folks into prisons, and rather than just say “they are going to have abortions anyway…” I’d rather we find a way to change our social thinking on this. But I’m afraid they have gained too much momentum and I don’t see how this gets turned around.
This_person
Well-Known Member
This, right here ^^
As long as we say, "well, she can kill the child because otherwise she might have a harder time at work", we're saying life is not precious.
I'm all for telling mothers and fathers and doctors that they can't just kill people for being inconvenient.