Big Armored Vehicles' Big Surprise

Lugnut

I'm Rick James #####!
...how does it work in regards to IED's and vehicles? Wait for the body parts to start flying?

Nah, each service says we want "XXX" then the politicians get involved, restate the requests for the highest profit for each politician/state with a finger in the pie, divvy up the contracts between the various states, pack a little pork on each one, give the services the results, then blaim the expenditure on "defense needs."
 

Lugnut

I'm Rick James #####!
If they want to kill you bad enough, they'll find a way.

:pete: Particularly when the enemy doesn't operate with ANY engagement rules, and your rules of engagement are so restricted you have to have a bayonet shoved up your ass before you can poke the ####er in the eye with your finger.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'm fine...

Nah, each service says we want "XXX" then the politicians get involved, restate the requests for the highest profit for each politician/state with a finger in the pie, divvy up the contracts between the various states, pack a little pork on each one, give the services the results, then blaim the expenditure on "defense needs."

...with that, just why didn't anyone take the opportunity to make some money on these monsters beforehand?

Bob says we had plenty of armored vehicles that would have been good replacements for hummers.

Wiley says we wait until people die.

It's just tough to be supportive of the flag waving and pin wearing when everyone seems to be waiting for blood before they do anything.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
That would seem...

:pete: Particularly when the enemy doesn't operate with ANY engagement rules, and your rules of engagement are so restricted you have to have a bayonet shoved up your ass before you can poke the ####er in the eye with your finger.

...to make the argument for killing them first.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I understand...

Use what ya got..

If they are killing you in HMMWV's stop using the HMMWV..

But NO vehicle is "unkillable"..

If they want to kill you bad enough, they'll find a way.

...that but it takes a little more effort and skill to flip an M1 over than it does to spread hummer and GI all over the street. Make em' shoot back with something bigger and they won't be able to attack as much or as often.
 

ImnoMensa

New Member
VCertainly when we went to Iraq we had armored vehicles. ,but the need was not foreseen that we would need armored Humvee's, then we found we could not place enough armor on a humvee to make it safe in all occasions and started making larger ,more armored vehicles.

Still, when we went into Iraq we went in with vehicles that were built long before the Bush administration . Why didnt the previous administration see this need, if if could have been foreseen.

The fact is the IED's being used to destroy our troops was not foreseen because the terribly deadly ones being used to explode under our vehicles werent being made at the time. The more deadly explosives are being designed by the Iranians faster than we can build vehicles capable of absorbing those explosions, and at what point does it become impossible to build a vehicle so capable.

Much the same thing happened in new Orleans. A storm came in that was almost impossible to be absorbed. The people in new Orleans and the Media and Bush bashers screamed for instant homes. What they got was 70,000 trailers built that are filled with formaldehyde and cant be used.

The screams are answered as best they can be. Because of the rapid and ill conceived planning we ended up with too many and maybe not as well designed as we should have gotten. Blaming it on one administration or another is only a foul plot by politicians to take advantage of a situation that arises. As the old saying goes" #### happens."

We do the best we can and pay the bills after.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bad analogy...

Much the same thing happened in new Orleans. A storm came in that was almost impossible to be absorbed. The people in new Orleans and the Media and Bush bashers screamed for instant homes. What they got was 70,000 trailers built that are filled with formaldehyde and cant be used.

...a storm just happens and you don't know if it will be unusually bad or not until it happens.

We planned on going into Iraq and booby traps are nothing new nor are insurgencies. We've all seen plenty of public access documents and reports and we all have enough common sense to know that planners knew perfectly well what likely weapons would be used against us and it didn't include Achmed charging hummers on camel back with a sword.

It's like 9/11; the only people who were surprised by it are people who chose to be. Same with Pearl. We knew our vulnerabilities. We know them today.
 

Pete

Repete
Use what ya got..

If they are killing you in HMMWV's stop using the HMMWV..

But NO vehicle is "unkillable"..

If they want to kill you bad enough, they'll find a way.

Driving anything over a 155 HE shell burried in the road is a bad thing. Can a M1A1 survive that?
 

Pete

Repete
Nah, each service says we want "XXX" then the politicians get involved, restate the requests for the highest profit for each politician/state with a finger in the pie, divvy up the contracts between the various states, pack a little pork on each one, give the services the results, then blaim the expenditure on "defense needs."

:yeahthat: In the DOD it is called a "Congressional plus up" in the media it is called "pork". Half the time DOD doesn't even want the item, congress says "Buy it and here is the money."
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Driving anything over a 155 HE shell burried in the road is a bad thing. Can a M1A1 survive that?

the people inside it probably will.. the tank.. probably be a mobility kill.

HE isn't very effective against a tank.. not enough focused energy.

As long as a crewman doesn't suffer fatal head trauma from hitting the inside pieces when the tank flips over, he should be ok...

You are right though, the bottom is the weakest link when it comes to any tank.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Yup...

Driving anything over a 155 HE shell burried in the road is a bad thing. Can a M1A1 survive that?

...a number of them have basically been flipped back over and once they clean the dead humans out, it's pretty much ready to go again.



Edit; I absolutely defer to bob on this one. It's just what I thought I'd read before; it's too violent for people to survive.
 
Last edited:

itsbob

I bowl overhand
I finally got the video to load on my legacy 'puter..

As violent as that looked, I didn't see any hull penetration.. and it looks like at the end of the video the driver is hitting the brakes..

No secondary explosions.. no fuel or ammo, so I'm guessing the hull is still intact.. hell as bad as it looks they didn't even knock the tracks off of it.. and I've seen more violent landings than that done on purpose.. well, and not on purpose.. with nothing but minor injuries.. We used to have 'fun' seeing how far off the ground we could get our tanks.. and I'd have to say hitting an antivehicle ditch at >50 MPH probably looked as violent, but we came away with no injuries..

very possible people inside are beat to hell, but alive.

I did find ONE article that reported two deaths from an IED strike on an M1A2.. the blast rolled the M1 over an embankment and killed two of the four crewmen. Guess on my part would be the loader and the tank commander.. they usually ride (especialy in the open country) with the hatches open and their bodies half out of the tank. We lost several tank and Bradley commanders in Germany and the US in rollovers like that.
 
Last edited:
Top