Bill G - Good Little Statist

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."[2]

See the bolded parts.

I don't think the fed is being unreasonable to want to crack the cellphones of those who've committed acts of terrorism, and I believe they do indeed have probable cause.

Let's just get real: if the fed wants to trump up some charges against you and toss you in the gulag on a whim, they don't need your cellphone data - they can just do it. All this outrage over cellphone privacy is just noise. Your information isn't private, and it never has been.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
See the bolded parts.

I don't think the fed is being unreasonable to want to crack the cellphones of those who've committed acts of terrorism, and I believe they do indeed have probable cause.

Let's just get real: if the fed wants to trump up some charges against you and toss you in the gulag on a whim, they don't need your cellphone data - they can just do it. All this outrage over cellphone privacy is just noise. Your information isn't private, and it never has been.


But keep in mind, they are not asking for the data on this phone. they want Apple to develop a special version of the entire operating system they can load onto any Iphone that bypasses that encryption. This particular phone is like those kids Jerry put up on stage with him. this case isn't about that, not really. And obviously, this data is private, or this case wouldn't exist. The tech exists to ensure my data remains private. And I sort of like that. Feels like freedom. Me, I know my personal stuff isn't private, just part of what I do and who I do it for. But that's a choice I have made, to work in such a field. Should I choose to leave and go do work outside of this field, it should again be my choice to secure my data any way I wish.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...tes-report-that-he-backs-fbi-in-apple-dispute

So... As it turns out, Mr. Gates hasn't said that he supports the FBI in this particular case. He's essentially saying, we have to figure these things out - have a discussion and figure out what the right balance is, what the right public policies are. Apple has itself suggested something along those lines. As it is, the FBI wants to jump over that - e.g., jump over considering legislation that would allow it to force Apple to do what it wants - and just be able to use an old, vague, overly-broad, piece of legislation to justify having a court, in effect, decide the public policy issue.

When it comes to this particular case, Mr. Gates just said that the courts would have to decide it and that Apple has indicated that, if it loses in court, it will comply with the governments' demand. Again, as I indicated in the other thread, Apple hasn't lost in court yet - not even in the original court (let alone in appeals courts). This was an ex parte order, Apple now has the legal right to respond with its legal arguments. It hasn't had a chance to argue its position to the court yet. That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it loses - it may even lose any appeals it makes, perhaps fairly quickly.
 
Right, but it's a false sense of security. Your data isn't private. It never has been.

Here's a story I found:

http://www.cnet.com/news/apple-says...-most-promising-way-to-access-terrorist-data/

That was a major screw up.

We were talking about that in the other thread. As it turns out, officials from San Bernadino County reset the password at the direction of the FBI (something that the government did not acknowledge in its latest filing with the court, it just suggested that it was something the county did - I think that was an intentional omission on the government's part).

Had the password not been reset, there's a slim chance that they could have gotten the iPhone to backup to iCloud again. And then Apple would have been able to give the FBI access to that backup. (That would only be possible because the user of the iPhone had it set up such that that was possible, if someone wanted their information to be secure from that particular possibility, they could just have the iPhone set to not back up - or not back certain things up - to iCloud.)

The question is, was this just a mistake on the part of the FBI - in the initial hours of the investigation (or after finding the iPhone), they did something without realizing the effects of doing that something? Or was it intentional? They realized this case had the right optics to force Apple to do someone like what they are currently trying to force it to do, so they intentionally sabotaged their ability to get the info off the iPhone the easier way. I doubt it is the latter, I'd actually say that I think that's very unlikely. But there are no doubt people at the FBI that, had they been involved, they would have realized the implications of reseting that password and who would have advised against doing so - assuming they wanted to get info off of the iPhone. I would have, after thinking about it for a few minutes, realized that they shouldn't have reset the password - just to be safe and maintain as many options as possible. But was someone around (and consulted) who would have realized that? Probably not, it was probably an innocent (though significant) mistake on the part of law enforcement. But it strikes me that - even not knowing all the possible implications and not being tech savvy enough to know how such things work - it's not the kind of thing someone should have done without making sure they'd thought it through.
 
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glhs837

Power with Control
Right, but it's a false sense of security. Your data isn't private. It never has been.

Here's a story I found:

http://www.cnet.com/news/apple-says...-most-promising-way-to-access-terrorist-data/

That was a major screw up.



Keep this in mind

"Apple already provided the FBI with access to Farook's iCloud backups through mid-October, when he apparently stopped iCloud to back up the iPhone provided to him by his employers. (Farook and his wife destroyed their personal phones before their attacks.) The data left on the phone is encrypted with 256-bit AES security, the same standard used to protect US government computers. That encryption makes a brute-force attack on the iPhone 5C by the FBI nearly impossible. Such an attack includes trying numerous passwords until the right one is found."

So, the only reason that password reset "hack" was even a possibility is that this phone was issued by his employer, who had admin rights to reset the password. Lacking that, it's not a thing.
 

stew77

New Member
What happened to all the "hackers" in the world? What about the people who routinely hack credit card accounts, Places like Target, the U. S. Government, the VA...Banks? Why can't they take a reguliar I phone and unlock it?? Having been in the IT world for a few years, I am very suprised that there is NOT a backdoor to the security set on a phone. When millions of SSN's, Names, Addresses, Phone Numbers are unlocked and put out on the Internet, why is there so much "light" on this particuliar phone. Is there a ultimate goal to have a Universal Key for phones made by Apple? (and the government be in control of the "key"?) I understand the "Need" to open this particuliar Phone to see just what is on it in regards to Criminal, and or people of Interest, to the Federal Government. ANYTHING to keep us safer, but I still think there is a ultimate goal to give the Government (Big Brother) the key to your secrets/contacts! I DO agree with the General public and that Apple SHOULD comply and unlock this phone. But it makes me wonder..!?!
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
but I still think there is a ultimate goal to give the Government (Big Brother) the key to your secrets/contacts!

I would hand Barack Obama himself my phone and he can have at it.

Something, though:

Anything sensitive on my phone - financial stuff, whatever - is password protected and has other encryption. So how would that work? The actual phone data is one thing, but what about other accounts and apps?
 
Keep this in mind

"Apple already provided the FBI with access to Farook's iCloud backups through mid-October, when he apparently stopped iCloud to back up the iPhone provided to him by his employers. (Farook and his wife destroyed their personal phones before their attacks.) The data left on the phone is encrypted with 256-bit AES security, the same standard used to protect US government computers. That encryption makes a brute-force attack on the iPhone 5C by the FBI nearly impossible. Such an attack includes trying numerous passwords until the right one is found."

So, the only reason that password reset "hack" was even a possibility is that this phone was issued by his employer, who had admin rights to reset the password. Lacking that, it's not a thing.

That's one aspect of the situation. But even that quoted passage gets part of the situation wrong. It isn't the 256-bit encryption that makes brute forcing the lock passcode nearly impossible, that passcode is likely something that's quite brute forcible (I think I may even have read somewhere that it's either a 4 or 6 digit numeric password, not a more complex alphanumeric passcode).

The problem is that the lock passcode is protected by forced delays between attempts and, possibly, by the auto erase function being turned on such that 10 wrong attempts wipes everything in the user partition of the memory. (It wouldn't actually wipe it, it would just throw away the real encryption key such that it was effectively impossible to access.) The user passcode can be quite simple and yet not brute forcible because of those built in security precautions.

That (possibly simple) passcode is then used, along with an unreadable unique device ID number (which is burned into the silicon), to create (and then access) the real encryption key that is needed to make sense of the data in the user partition. There are actually different encryption keys used for different things - but, the point is, the lock passcode is itself just a key that lets you get to those encryption keys. Without it, you're left with the daunting prospect of trying to brute force the complex encryption keys that protect the user's information (e.g. by pulling out the memory and working directly with it).

And just to be clear (not necessarily for you, I realize that you understand this stuff better than most), the password that was reset was for the iCloud account, it wasn't the lock passcode that is now the issue. The significance of having reset that account password is that the iPhone no longer knows the account password, so it can't auto back up to iCloud even if it is still set to do so. You'd need to get into the iPhone to enter the new account password in order for it to do so, and if you could do that... well, you'd be in the iPhone. :smile:
 
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I would hand Barack Obama himself my phone and he can have at it.

Something, though:

Anything sensitive on my phone - financial stuff, whatever - is password protected and has other encryption. So how would that work? The actual phone data is one thing, but what about other accounts and apps?

That gets to the heart of the issue. No, what the FBI is asking for would not automatically open up everything that's on your phone (and elsewhere for that matter) for everyone that wants access to it. But it would make it much, much easier for those that are motivate, and who have some tech savvy, to get access to it.

Think of it this way. Apple (and others) have managed to create - with considerable cleverness - one really, really, really good layer of protection for that kind of stuff, really for anything you choose to protect (some people choose convenience over such protection in how they set their phones up, which is obviously fine - their choice). If that layer of protection is defeated, the hardest part of the job - for all kinds of potential bad actors - is done. They can get around other aspects of security, it's just a question of how badly they want to. But that first layer is a bitch, it's really well designed. That outer wall is really, really tall. Let people through it and you open up all kinds of possibilities for bad actors. That's why it's so important to keep people outside that first wall, it's the only line that can actually be held.

Yes, people's own lack of diligence or awareness opens up possibilities anyway, but that's their choice. They could have things quite secure if they wanted to.

Anyway, the FBI wants Apple to build a machine capable of making a hole through that super wall - ostensibly because Apple is the only one that knows how to build such a machine. And the FBI says this is safe to do because Apple can make the machine such that it would only work on one such wall, the one protecting this particular phone. Also, this machine will never fall into the wrong hands - and, it having been built once won't make it such that others can figure out how to build it. I think the FBI is simply wrong on both of those fronts. And that doesn't even get at the problems with accepting that the government has the legal authority to order someone to do something like this, to build such a special machine.


EDIT: To add a TL;DR... Yes, it is possible that it's not the end of the world if this particular piece of ground is given up. But the reason this particular piece of ground must be depended is that, it is the only piece of ground between here and everyone that matters that can actually be defended. And that's apparent to those that understand the landscape. If we try to fall back and protect ourselves at different places, taking to arms only when our enemies are known and their victories imminent, we will have already lost. There's one place where we have a chance to hold a line that will meaningfully protect us. And it's right here, it's in refusing to allow this particular Rubicon to be crossed.
 
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vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
EDIT: To add a TL;DR... Yes, it is possible that it's not the end of the world if this particular piece of ground is given up. But the reason this particular piece of ground must be depended is that, it is the only piece of ground between here and everyone that matters that can actually be defended. And that's apparent to those that understand the landscape. If we try to fall back and protect ourselves at different places, taking to arms only when our enemies are known and their victories imminent, we will have already lost. There's one place where we have a chance to hold a line that will meaningfully protect us. And it's right here, it's in refusing to allow this particular Rubicon to be crossed.

Right, but if it gets to that point with the government, they won't worry about the niceties of permission and court orders - they'll just take it and there won't be anything you can do about it. Pretty sure Saddam Hussein didn't worry about search orders before he had his soldiers kick in doors and cart women off to the rape rooms.

Right now, this very minute, if the fed wanted Apple to make that backdoor, they could indeed force them - the alternative would be to drive them out of business, or at least the US market. And there's nothing Apple could do about it. United States v. Microsoft Corporation comes to mind...
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Right, but if it gets to that point with the government, they won't worry about the niceties of permission and court orders - they'll just take it and there won't be anything you can do about it. Pretty sure Saddam Hussein didn't worry about search orders before he had his soldiers kick in doors and cart women off to the rape rooms.

Right now, this very minute, if the fed wanted Apple to make that backdoor, they could indeed force them - the alternative would be to drive them out of business, or at least the US market. And there's nothing Apple could do about it. United States v. Microsoft Corporation comes to mind...

And Riley v. California comes to mind for me.

The Court’s unanimous decision in the cellphone privacy cases brought the Fourth Amendment into the digital age. The opinion by the Chief Justice rests on a simple truth: “Cell phones differ in both a quantitative and a qualitative sense from other objects that might be kept on an arrestee’s person.” The outcome follows logically from the text of the Fourth Amendment: “get a warrant” before searching a cell phone seized after an arrest. But that is only the starting point. The Court’s opinion is Riley v. California signals a Court more prepared to engage in the challenges of the digital age ahead.

The Court rejected outright the government’s proposal that agencies “‘develop protocols to address’ concerns raised by cloud computing.” The Chief Justice stated plainly that “the Founders did not fight a revolution to gain the right to government agency protocols.”

There is also in the Court’s Riley opinion a subtle but significant shout-out to Justice Brandeis and his famous dissent in Olmstead, the 1928 wiretap act. In that case, Brandeis rejected the Court’s limited application of the Fourth Amendment, which found no warrant requirement for the interception of telephone communication. Brandeis argued that the Constitution must be adapted to the demand of the modern age, suggesting that “[t]he progress of science in furnishing the Government with means of espionage is not likely to stop with wiretapping.” It was not just the tapping of the telephone that concerned Justice Brandeis. He also anticipated many of the modern investigative techniques, such as the phony cellphone towers known as “Stingray” and the government’s surreptitious access to private files stored on remote cloud servers. “Ways may someday be developed by which the Government, without removing papers from secret drawers, can reproduce them in court, and by which it will be enabled to expose to a jury the most intimate occurrences of the home.”

http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/06/s...rt-sets-out-fourth-amendment-for-digital-age/
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
That's ridiculous. The FBI doesn't have the manpower to run around snooping on everyone's phone and making up crap to incriminate random innocent citizens. Anyone who thinks they do is a crackpot. You'd have to come up on their radar for some reason - being involved in a terrorist attack, for example. You, random boring citizen, are not as important as you think you are and are perhaps getting too mental with the TV and movies you watch. The FBI doesn't give a damn about you and your dick pics.




Right .... because the IRS hasn't been used for a fishing expedition, or the FBI going after News Reporters


Gov Abuses Can and DO happen.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Right .... because the IRS hasn't been used for a fishing expedition, or the FBI going after News Reporters


Gov Abuses Can and DO happen.

Nah, never happens.......


http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050100/nsa-admits-employees-spied-on-loved-ones.html

"Employees of the U.S. National Security Agency spied on "unfaithful" husbands, boyfriends and girlfriends using surveillance technology of the agency, according to a letter from the NSA to a U.S. Senator"

""According to NSA's independent inspector general, there have been only 12 substantiated cases of willful violation over 10 years—essentially one per year," Alexander told a hearing on Foreign Intelligence Surveillance "

Of course, we will never know how many unsubstantiated cases there were.
 
I suppose this is somewhat heartening, but I'm not sure I buy it as accurately reflecting the reality of the (public perception) situation.

Solid support for Apple in iPhone encryption fight: poll


On a related note: I've been reading some of the rhetoric on this issue from elsewhere, and I have to (rhetorically) ask... How ####ing far through the looking glass must we be such that people would describe what Apple is (and what those supporting it are) doing as supporting terrorism and what the government is trying to do (and what those supporting it are doing) as opposing terrorism?

I mean, seriously? Giving terrorists what they want - giving up, to however slight a degree, what it means to be America; giving up personal liberties and security; arguably allowing our own Constitution to be violated - is somehow fighting terrorism? Is opposing it? Is somehow being strong in the face of terrorism? And on the other hand, resisting what terrorists want - refusing to let them push us further from what it means to be America; fighting for personal liberties and security; expecting our Constitution (as originally understood) to be honored - is somehow supporting terrorism? Rather than standing up to it? Rather than fighting it? That is some bat#### crazy ass-backward way of thinking about stuff there.

In giving up who we are, in becoming more so what terrorists would like us to be, in letting fear drive us to give up that which terrorists can't, but for our own weakness, take from us, we are supporting terrorism. We are encouraging it. We are rewarding it. It is weakness that is revealed in what the government wants, not strength. It is cowardice that is revealed in prostrating ourselves in the face of terroristic threats. It is strength that is revealed in standing up to what the government wants. It is courage that is revealed in resisting the goals of terroristic tactics. Terrorism seeks to scare us into changing who we are and how we act. It only wins when we are sufficiently scared, and it only persists (with meaningful frequency) when it has hope of winning. The best way to fight terrorism is to deny it that hope.

It's a crying shame, and it's shameful: Osama Bin Laden has been dead for 5 years and he spent the decade before that in hiding. And yet, we are still looking for new ways to congratulate him for what he pulled off on 9/11. We are still finding new reasons to surrender to him and the evil which he represents. That attack may well have been the most successful attack (in terms of bang for the buck) in the history of warfare, no matter how it's been waged - terroristically, militarily, or otherwise.
 

LibertyBeacon

Unto dust we shall return
I would hand Barack Obama himself my phone and he can have at it.

Something, though:

Anything sensitive on my phone - financial stuff, whatever - is password protected and has other encryption. So how would that work? The actual phone data is one thing, but what about other accounts and apps?

:killingme
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I mean, seriously? Giving terrorists what they want - giving up, to however slight a degree, what it means to be America; giving up personal liberties and security; arguably allowing our own Constitution to be violated - is somehow fighting terrorism? Is opposing it? Is somehow being strong in the face of terrorism? And on the other hand, resisting what terrorists want - refusing to let them push us further from what it means to be America; fighting for personal liberties and security; expecting our Constitution (as originally understood) to be honored - is somehow supporting terrorism? Rather than standing up to it? Rather than fighting it? That is some bat#### crazy ass-backward way of thinking about stuff there.



how about you [not YOU Tilted] just let me carry my damn rifle around where ever I go, and I'll provide my own protection
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
I guess I'm lazy because I really don't want to dig into the particulars but --

Is the government asking Apple to crack one phone for them - or asking them to make it so THEY can crack it?

Are they asking for the keys - or for a ride?
 
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