Buchanan: Hitler Didn't Want War.....

Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
TurboK9 said:
OK wait... Pat's book tries to place the blame for the holocaust on allied shoulders... this is what I mean by personal responsibilty. You can't blame the WWI Allies for the deaths of 6 million jews in WWII.
I wasn't referring to the immediate consequences of WWI, I was referring to how the whole shmeal was being linked together to absolve Hitler of responsibility. THAT is BS.
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The hell you can't. It is the law of unintended consequences.

There are givens in time and place and one of history's givens was the incessant warfare in Europe. Within givens, there are key figures who have the rare opportunity to flip a lever, or not flip it, and dramatically alter the course of history. Woodrow Wilson was such a man in 1917.

If the argument is that any US president, any man of that time, would have done the same thing, then, maybe so. Then, maybe Churchill was similarly just along for the ride.

If so, then you can see where that leads us with Hitler and Stalin; just a couple of regular guys who just happened to be boss when stuff happened.

I think there are key, indispensable people. I think Wilson was one as was Churchill as was Hitler and Stalin. That is the lesson I take from Pat's book; Churchill was a ####ing idiot, much like Dubbya; people who, single handedly, at their time and place, made momentous decisions that ruined their nations.
 
FredFlash

FredFlash

New Member
Unless these antitrust bills or something similar are enacted into law and enforced, that the tide of socialism will swell until it overwhelms all other parties.

--A wise Democrat
 
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TurboK9

TurboK9

New Member
Larry Gude said:
So, Wilson and Churchill were just there and Hitler and Stalin and Tojo were the bad guys and that's it?
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Churchill may have been a fool, Wilson may have taken the wrong road, but that doesn't change the fact that Hitler had 6,000,000 civilians murdered, for what basically equates to no reason at all. It doesn't change the fact that Tojo was just dandy with the atrocities (rape, murder, torture - en masse) his troops were committing in China (the Chinese and Koreans were less than human to the Japanese, just as the Jews, Gypsies, etc were less than human to hitler).

Hell Churchill could have sat on his arse and picked his nose and ignored Hitler all together, and what? Hitler would have been successful in comitting mass genocide?

Are you implying that the US was wrong to stop supplying Japan with raw materials because of what Japan was doing in China? What?

Hey everyone! Let's rewrite history! Hitler and Tojo and Stalin were just victims of circumstances, puppets of events orchestrated by the evil Allies!! :sarcasm:
 
Bavarian

Bavarian

New Member
Churchill and Hitler could have allied themselves and their countries against the truly evil Stalin and his U.S.S.R., who's mass murders were in the 10's of millions. Such an alliance would have tempered the more radical aspects of Hitler.
But we, the US, are heading down the same road, getting involved in foreign entanglements and giving war guarantees to nations along the Russian border which have no strategic value to U.S. Do you want to go to war over the Baltic Nations? or Ukraine?
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
TurboK9 said:
Churchill may have been a fool, Wilson may have taken the wrong road, but that doesn't change the fact that Hitler had 6,000,000 civilians murdered, for what basically equates to no reason at all. :
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There may be some confusion between us; Hitler is one of histories bad guys and mass murderers, top 5 easy. If you read the history of the times, Churchill, privately, was a great admirer Hitler through most of the 1930's. Anti semitism was not some exclusive German phenomena.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
TurboK9 said:
Hell Churchill could have sat on his arse and picked his nose and ignored Hitler all together, and what? Hitler would have been successful in comitting mass genocide?
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We're not going to pretend Churchill went to war with Germany to protect the Jews, are we?
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
TurboK9 said:
Hey everyone! Let's rewrite history! Hitler and Tojo and Stalin were just victims of circumstances, puppets of events orchestrated by the evil Allies!! :sarcasm:
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Never said that. What I said was, that if YOU believe Wilson and Churchill werer NOT active participants in their day and age, if THEY jsut happened to be in power at the time and that pretty much any men in their shoes would have acted as they did, Churchill from 1913 on, Wilson going to someone elses war, then I suggest you also have to take the position that Hitler and Stalin were likewise simply do what others would have done in their shoes, which is absurd.

Hitler and Stalin are two of histories great monsters. Churchill, by making secret aid deals with the French staff pre WWI, deals he pretty much alone was responsible for and his own PM did not authorize or know about, deals that, had they been known would have very likely given the Germans pause instead of instantly initiating the Schifflin war plan and Wilson, by saving the French and British and then watching as they wrote Versailles, made their, Stalin and Hitler, paths possible.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bavarian said:
But we, the US, are heading down the same road, getting involved in foreign entanglements and giving war guarantees to nations along the Russian border which have no strategic value to U.S. Do you want to go to war over the Baltic Nations? or Ukraine?
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If anyone cares to recall, candidate McCain foolishly said "We're all Georgians now" last year.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bavarian said:
Churchill and Hitler could have allied themselves and their countries against the truly evil Stalin and his U.S.S.R., who's mass murders were in the 10's of millions. Such an alliance would have tempered the more radical aspects of Hitler.
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Hitler admired and respected the British. He feared the Soviets. German expansion was seen as Eastward, guaranteeing war with Russia sooner or later because the Russians saw THEIR expansion as Westward.

Britain make a huge mistake promising war over Danzig. Poland was going to be either German dominated or Russian. Hitler made his move when he pretty much had to.
 
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daileyck1

New Member
All of you need to brush up on your history.
Some more than others.

I suggest reading.
 
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Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
daileyck1 said:
Mein Kampf A. Hitler

The other side of the hil B.H Liddell Hart

The rise and fall of the third reich William Shirer

Lost Victories Manstein

Larry I would think you already read the 1st 1.
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Nope. I find Hitler so repulsive, I just never wanted to read it. I guess I should, though.
 
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daileyck1

New Member
-SS- said:
Excellent book. You're the first person I have run into in over 15 years who has read that book.
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Sweet Someone else who reads!! Yes its a good book. I like reading military history, If you have any good suggestions too read let me know I will read them. :buddies:
 
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