California Supreme Court overturns gay marriage ba

This_person

Well-Known Member
I dont care either way, but 2 wolves and a sheep are the inherent problem with a "Democracy".

Which our founding fathers understood and thats why we're a Republic
We are a republic, that's for sure. But, only insofar as our Chief Executive goes. In all other matters, especially local ones, we are a democracy.

Maybe too bad for the sheep, but it keeps the sheep from running the wolves.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Constitution's Article IV, Section 4, guarantees "to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government."

Does our pledge of allegiance to the flag say to "the democracy for which it stands," or does it say to "the republic for which it stands"?

Do we sing "The Battle Hymn of the Democracy" or "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"?

In a pure democracy, "there is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual." James Madison

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." John Adams

"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos." Justice John Marshall
Yep, the way we elect our president is a republican form of government. In every other way, we're a democracy.

We elect our representatives in Congress in a democratic fashion (originally, it was ONLY the Representatives who were chosen this way. The Senators were even more republican selected), and we elect our President via electors. I'm sure they're out there, but I know of no state that works in anything but a democratic fashion for selecting legislators and executives.
 

Arista

New Member
A few homosexuals will of course marry and some of them might even give up their tendencies to be sexually promiscuous, [...]
That is a stereotype.

Then why is civil union not sufficient? We have seen the argument that civil unions or other full legal entitlements are not enough as being recognized on a marriage certificate.
In the eyes of the gay community, labeling their union as a "civil union" versus a "marriage" states "equal, but different or separate." They're asking for equal.
 
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This_person

Well-Known Member
That is a stereotype.


In the eyes of the gay community, labeling their union as a "civil union" versus a "marriage" states "equal, but different or separate." They're asking for equal.
Equal but different would be correct, though. Legally equal, but different because it's a different situation.

They're looking for legally enforceable acceptance, which should not be forthcoming. If they're really interested in having all of the same "rights", they have about 99% of them now, available through different means. If they're looking for legal equality, a civil union would carry that.
 

Arista

New Member
Equal but different would be correct, though. Legally equal, but different because it's a different situation.

They're looking for legally enforceable acceptance, which should not be forthcoming. If they're really interested in having all of the same "rights", they have about 99% of them now, available through different means. If they're looking for legal equality, a civil union would carry that.
Legally, a homosexual couple could go to a lawyer and plunk down plenty of money to get most of the same legal rights as a married couple. However, they argue that they shouldn't have to do that. They should be allowed to go to a court house, apply for a marriage license, have their ceremony, and get those legal rights just the same as a majority of the population is able to do.

Further, I'm not sure I'm 100% clear on how the situation is different.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Legally, a homosexual couple could go to a lawyer and plunk down plenty of money to get most of the same legal rights as a married couple. However, they argue that they shouldn't have to do that. They should be allowed to go to a court house, apply for a marriage license, have their ceremony, and get those legal rights just the same as a majority of the population is able to do.
Maybe they shouldn't. We are talking a whopping 1-3% of the population here. Perhaps we should redefine "husband" and "wife" to simply be "spouse", or "life-partner" for the other 97-99%.

Actually, a civil union would provide the same legal rights and responsibilities (the second half of which are rarely discussed in these conversations). So, if the name shouldn't matter to the 97-99% that would have to change, why should it matter to the 1-3% that might have to do it just a little differently (especially if their real concern is the legalities of it, not the mandated social acceptance)?
Further, I'm not sure I'm 100% clear on how the situation is different.
I suspect you are, you just disagree.
 

Arista

New Member
Maybe they shouldn't. We are talking a whopping 1-3% of the population here. Perhaps we should redefine "husband" and "wife" to simply be "spouse", or "life-partner" for the other 97-99%.
Why would you propose that? Homosexual couples who consider themselves to be "married" (albeit not legally so) often refer to their partner as their "husband" or "wife." The terminology is an integral part of the American lexicon.

Actually, a civil union would provide the same legal rights and responsibilities (the second half of which are rarely discussed in these conversations). So, if the name shouldn't matter to the 97-99% that would have to change, why should it matter to the 1-3% that might have to do it just a little differently (especially if their real concern is the legalities of it, not the mandated social acceptance)?
But why should they, as American citizens, be treated differently than any other American citizen? I'm confused.

I suspect you are, you just disagree.
I tend to need things spelled out for me sometimes. How is it different?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Why would you propose that? Homosexual couples who consider themselves to be "married" (albeit not legally so) often refer to their partner as their "husband" or "wife." The terminology is an integral part of the American lexicon.
I agree, it's an integral part of America. I believe that a definition of a wife is the female of a two-sex married couple, and husband is the male counterpart. For there to be two husbands, or two wives, would redefine the word, as well as the word married. Or, if there is a husband and wife in a single sex couple, that would equally redefine the words.
But why should they, as American citizens, be treated differently than any other American citizen? I'm confused.
A different circumstance generally is handled in different ways. A blind American citizen is not granted a driver's license. A totally bald person is not given a hair cut. A male is not, by definition, a "wife". To call an apple an orange would simply not make good sense of the word. Thus, we either need to change the word, or redefine the word for the 97-99% of people to whom changing does not apply.
I tend to need things spelled out for me sometimes. How is it different?
Read above.
 

foodcritic

New Member
What?

Your comments above are a fable, why would the founding fathers, create a "Christian" country when they were of varied beliefs?

:shrug:

Your posts are a fable...I never said the founding fathers created a "Christian" nation. The rest of what you said makes no sense.
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
Your posts are a fable...I never said the founding fathers created a "Christian" nation. The rest of what you said makes no sense.

...

Just a note for you ....Our system of goverment IS set up with the bible in mind. Not only do we have the law, which is fashioned out of the OT law, but we have judges that handle disputes. Read the OT and you will see Moses set up a system of judges ( could that be why there is a picture of Moses in the Supreme court receiving the law???). Thankfully our founding fathers had the wisdon they did and to add seperation of powers to our goverment. If you don't like religion in politics you could move to ......uumm.....Communist China.. You should feel right at home.:wench:

:shrig:
 
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toppick08

Guest
Sorry i meant to answer this yesterday :lmao:


No even locally, we're still a Republic.
We (citizens) dont vote on national laws/regulations, our Representitives (Senators/Congressmen) do that.

We dont vote on state laws/regulations, our State representitives do that

We dont vote on local laws/regulations, our County representitives do that



:clap:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
The Republican form of Government is Governing via representation, as far as Presidential selection goes, yes thats done in a Republican fashion. But our Government, from National, State and Local is all still a Repbulic form.
Fair enough, I'll concede I had a different understanding. In that the president is not elected by the voters (the citizens), but by people whose job it is is to circumvent the voters should they be determined to be wrong by the electors.

In other words, I understood republic vs. democracy to be how we elected the representatives, not the representatives themselves. Our representatives are elected democratically, our president is determined in a republic fashion. Locally, our representatives are pretty much all determined in a democratic fashion.

Again, :notworthy to your better understanding than mine :buddies:
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Long term trend

is...a limited republic.

Voting rights continue to be expanded since the Jackson presidency. Gone are the property requirements, literacy, race, gender-and most recently reduced age.
Add to that: The alteration of the voting for senators: passed in the Progressive era (amendmt 16).

many states added
1)Initiative (Citizens can propose legislation)
2)Recall (remove a politician--ie: Gray Davis)
3)Referendum (Yes we have that in Md: remember the handgun legislation a dozen years ago?-it was up to the voters to decide)

only more recently has the pressure on the courts to create law too_thus taking more responsibility from our legislatures.-Look at the behavior of the California courts.

THIS is ominous because it destroys the original principle of our founding fathers. They knew that an uneducated, immoral public with voting rights ...will repeat Rome: GIVE US BREAD & Violent games!!

...and what eventually emerged were demagogues and emperors.
Our republic is doomed if the people continue to be immoral and stupid.
 

foodcritic

New Member
UR wrong

Oh ok, so when you stated this :

and then later on said this:

You werent trying to imply they were Christians and they meant which flavor of Christianity you wanted to follow :yay:

Especially because you left Christianity out of your "what it had nothing to do with"

Right :shrug:

Nice try.

I never said "Christian Nation" as you placed the quotes in prior post. Is our country founded on Judeo-Christian principles......Yes ...I am assuming your not debating that point. Finally the founders came from various Christian denominations. The Left (you) now like to use the word religion in place of what the founders understood as denominations of differing Christian churches. So now we must allow all RELIGION in to the public square.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams (a real extremeist)
:elaine:
 
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toppick08

Guest
When this goes back to the voters in Nov. it will be overturned, like it was the first time by Ca. voters, and their "Supreme Court", will put their tail behind their legs.....:biggrin:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
If you want to make marriage a religious thing then keep it in the church and pass no laws regarding it.

But then Some enthusiastic enterprising individual will eventually sue the Government for recognizing and playing a part into the religious aspects of Marriage, you have to get permission from the Government to be allowed to participate in this Religious event.

If you want marriage to be a government issue then you must allow equal rights.
Personally, I'm not against it on a religious level. Whatever the courts decide means nothing to the religious ceremony. I'm personally against it on a few different levels, one being the definitions of the words "husband", "wife", and "marriage". Until very recently, the definitions of these words have been naturally (pun intended) heterosexual in nature, with "wife" necessitating being female in gender, "husband" male, etc. Homosexuals represent about 2% of the population, and changing the definitions of the words for no good reason to 98% of the population is absurd.

As far as rights go, before this usurpation of public intent on the CA Supreme Court's part, homosexuals had a reasonable law giving them all of "rights" they seek:
FoxNews said:
The California case did not present the question of whether same-sex couples were entitled to any legal recognition of their relationships. That question had already been settled by the legislators, who established a domestic partnership law which provided same-sex couples with virtually all the rights and privileges of marriage, including the ability to make medical decisions, file joint state tax returns, and change surnames. The question before the court was therefore more modest: Does restriction of the title “marriage” to opposite sex couples violate the state constitution?
So, the whole point of the lawsuit was the word "marriage", and how (to further quote the article quoting the lawsuit)
Doing what once quaintly was thought to be the work of legislators, the court makes quick work of the task of weighing the relative importance of maintaining a traditional definition of marriage against denying same-sex couples the right to have their relationships accorded the “dignity and equal respect” afforded traditional families. It finds the justifications for maintaining even the label of marriage for traditional opposite-sex couples wanting.​
So, it seems what I said previously really holds true - the intent is not the "rights" they seek (and already have). The intent is legally forced social acceptance. Just doesn't seem appropriate.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I dont think their trying to bumrush Churches into letting them get married, what they are looking for is the same recognition that those married by the Justice o' peace get.
They already had that. That wasn't good enough. The lawsuit was whether to call an apple an orange. They insist their orange is an apple, and they want everyone else to look at at the orange, and call it an apple. They want the law to force others to see their union as a marriage. A marriage is a husband and wife. A husband is male, a wife is female. They already had all the legal rights via their union, but that was a different name. This isn't about being treated equally, this is about being accepted as an equal, when the two things are not equal, but very similar.
I understood it being an issue of the state is now recognizing the union of 2 individuals. If they already had the same recognition/rights, and the lawsuit was just about the term (marriage) then i agree it was absurd
I haven't read the lawsuit personally, but that's what that article was saying.
 
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