Calvinism: Predestined Salvation?

[Starman3000m]

(excerpt)

This month we recognize the immense impact John Calvin, the influential Roman Catholic reformer, has had on the face of Christendom over the past five hundred years. Many around the world are commemorating his quincentennial birthday this summer with special events and celebrations. This month begins the series, The Subtle Danger of Spiritual Fusion, where readers are being introduced to John Calvin's life and theology. Just as he was shaped by various influences in his day, his theology in like manner, impacts believers in surprising ways today. Following is the story of how John Calvin’s theology diverted the walk of a believer who fourteen years later escaped the snares of his reformed Catholicism.

Article excerpt by Brenda

“It’s been nearly five years since God rescued me from the snares of Calvinism. Once the stronghold of unconditional election was broken, I was finally able to comprehend what I had been involved with. I've spent a great deal of effort since that time educating myself about what Reformed theology is all about. I found that unconditional election is the entry point into this system of theology through Calvinism. Since Calvinism describes the way a person is saved, it becomes the gospel and foundation for Reformed theology.

Reformed theology is more properly known as Covenant theology, which postulates God made three other major covenants (in addition to the six He made with Israel) that can't be found in the Bible with chapter and verse. These additional inferred covenants define how God elected some for salvation while letting the rest go to hell (Covenant of Redemption), how God promises salvation for obedience (Covenant of Works), and how since man can't obey, God through Christ provided obedience actively in His life and passively through His death for salvation (Covenant of Grace). Both His life and death are said to contribute to salvation. The Bible teaches that Christ's one act of obedience on the cross provided atonement for sins. These postulated covenants lay the groundwork for salvation through election and law keeping righteousness. In essence, these three additional covenants skew God's plan for mankind to the point where Reformed theology can justify not only Calvinistic election and reprobation (not choosing to save some), but also for replacement theology where the church replaces Israel, the tribulation happening in 70 A.D. and the kingdom promises occurring for the church today. This complicated theology cannot be defended if Calvinistic election is false.

Unconditional election has been brought forward to our day from the 16th century reformation of Catholicism. The reformers learned it from Augustine who very likely learned election and predestination from the Manichean cult he was involved in prior to converting to Roman Catholicism. These concepts of election and predestination are not new, but very old being found in antiquity as enlightenment, elitism and fate. Augustine, who blended Christianity with neo Platonist philosophies, is not only responsible for many of the errors of Roman Catholicism, but also for many of the teachings found in its reformation. Sadly, much of Catholicism was retained, only redefined, in the Protestant Reformation so that many of its denominations today are merely degrees of separation from the Roman church. The despair of Lordship salvation yeilds the same hopelessness Roman Catholics experience if they take their doctrine seriously.

Thankfully, the Lord has delivered me and revealed to me the true face of Calvinism. Today, I’m at rest in the love of Christ when I fail. I sleep well at night and no longer fear condemnation. Christ’s blood, shed for all men, completely cleanses my conscience of guilt by faith. The pure truth of His Word gives me great joy, assurance and life. Having been humbled, I am better able to give love and show mercy to others who sin. Suffering teaches me lessons about the deep and abiding love Christ has for all His children. I thank the Lord often for His goodness in forgiving and delivering me from entangling deception.

I have a special place in my heart for those who are under the spiritual deception of Calvinism, knowing they are unable, and many times unwilling, to violate what they believe the Bible is teaching. As God gives me opportunity, I help all I can to understand this masterful and intellectual heresy which can be traced back to the 16th century reformation of Roman Catholicism and beyond. "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun," Ecclesiastes 1:9.

Caveat – While nearly all the articles on Middletown’s website are most excellent and while I am deeply thankful to God for the gift of these articles,
I politely disagree with any form of unconditional election. Out of conscience, I need to warn all about the pitfalls of adopting any hint of Calvinistic election. My view of election is that God elects those who believe the gospel from their heart. This view of election allows God to foreknow, but not foreordain belief, which preserves God’s sovereign activity in the believer’s life, yet doesn’t determine every move the believer makes. God sovereignly uses the variables of man's free choices, making His sovereignty infinitely greater than if He predetermined everything that happens. “

Complete Story at:
Caryl Productions with Cult & Occult Expert Caryl Matrisciana - Brenda's Testimony: Her 14 years in Calvinism

 

[Marie]

One confused lady

This poor woman never had her Theology straight if she thinks Covenant Theology is the sames as the Reformed Faith. For a description of what we believe refer to the Westminster Confession of Faith for Covenant Theology refer to this page. After the misinformation in the blurb I had no desire to read further. For a Baptist reformed view refer to the 1689 London confession of faith and for a reformed Lutheran perspective read the Ausburg Confession of Faith.

If you really want to understand Calvinism at an 8th grade level I strongly recomend the Amazing Grace the History of Calvinisn Hyper Calvinism and Arminianism You can watch clips on line and pick it up on Ebay for $9.00

 

[Starman3000m]

This poor woman never had her Theology straight if she thinks Covenant Theology is the sames as the Reformed Faith. For a description of what we believe refer to the Westminster Confession of Faith for Covenant Theology refer to this page. After the misinformation in the blurb I had no desire to read further. For a Baptist reformed view refer to the 1689 London confession of faith and for a reformed Lutheran perspective read the Ausburg Confession of Faith.

If you really want to understand Calvinism at an 8th grade level I strongly recomend the Amazing Grace the History of Calvinisn Hyper Calvinism and Arminianism You can watch clips on line and pick it up on Ebay for $9.00

Hi Marie,

"Predestined Salvation" is really not unique to the interpretation of John Calvin. Islam also believes in the concept of a person being saved by "predestination" as taught by the Islamic prophet, Muhammad.

I invite you to please read the following excerpt then access the short segment at the Internet link to compare how the Islamic concept is similar to Calvinism and how they both do not agree with teachings from the Holy Bible.

Chapter Title: Analyzing Islamic Theology
Part 3: Predestination of Souls

(excerpt)
Predestination, in theological belief, means that God has already predetermined in advance which person will spend eternity in heaven and which person will spend eternity in hell. Islam is one such religious ideology that teaches predestination, while Christianity preaches that God gives all people the freedom to choose for themselves. Granted, there are some Christian dogmas that also lean toward predestination; however, the basis of such teaching is countered when one reads the complete message as presented in the Holy Bible.

What may be confused with predestination is God's Divine attribute of being All-Knowing (Omniscient). Therefore, although God desires all of mankind to be saved from the wrath to come, He actually knows which individual will choose to accept His plan of Salvation and which individual will choose to reject Him. This does not prevent God from continually offering each individual the opportunity to know of His existence. In the end, each person will not be able to say that they were not aware of the existence of God nor can they say that they had not been told of His plan. Basically, each person chooses to love God willingly and through his or her own personal decision. By the same token, one willfully chooses to reject God through one’s own personal decision of unbelief.

As stated, if predestination was a true fact with God, then all people have already been assigned to either heaven or hell and they literally have no choice in the matter. Their fate has been pre-planned! That means that no matter how good or how bad a person lives on earth, they already have their eternal destination waiting for them. Does that sound like a Just and fair God?

If it is true that a person's eternal destiny has already been pre-determined from birth, then the Gospel Message of a loving and forgiving Creator, God, has just become null and void. In fact, how could God justify calling an individual to heed His message when it was God who created that individual to be doomed for hell, as would be the case in predestination? No problem for the individual that is already "predestined" to go to heaven. Apparently this individual is already in good-standing with a pre-printed ticket to paradise no matter what type of lifestyle he or she leads on earth! How unfortunate that many are taught this deceptive doctrine. In reality, predestination of one's soul would be the cruelest joke ever played on mankind by a sovereign and loving God. Any religion that teaches predestination of mankind and continues to claim that each individual has a "free-will" makes a liar out of the True God of Salvation.

In contrast to the Qur'an, the Holy Bible declares that all of mankind is already seen on a level playing field; each of us have fallen short of God's Glory and are in need of a Saviour:

First, the Bad News: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) "Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned;" (Romans: 5:12)

Now, The Good News: "But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Romans: 5:8-11)

The Old Testament writings also indicate that all are given the option to choose his/her own destiny. God even makes a suggestion:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live;" (Deuteronomy: 30:19)

Research

 

[Marie]

What Christianity Is

For a description of what Christinity is,
I would refer all to the Apostles creed or the Nicenecreed.

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

There seems to be some confusion as to what a cult is which is anything that deviates from the above.

I also wouldnt call the apostle Paul a heritic or say the book of Titus doesnt belong in scripture. Id refer you to Titus 1:1
If what you said was true, do you think I would really care about the lost? after all what would be the point.

That said, I greatly apericate your ministery and all the post in trying to lead people to Christ and to correct understanding of Gods word. I would ask you to exaime your heart though, and stick to the Gospel as its not proffitable or wise to be devisive and cause confussion.

If you understand free will, then this conversation goes away. But to compare a doctrine that exsisted long before Calvin to an occult, is way out of bounds. If you look at church history it was those that strayed from this doctrine that fell in to heresy like Pelagianism.

We dont have to agree on this, but lets be very careful and thoughtfull as to how profitable it is to discuss this in this forum and whom were working for, or possibly against!
To God be the Glory.

 

[Starman3000m]

If what you said was true, do you think I would really care about the lost? after all what would be the point.

Marie,

I am sure you care about the lost, however, in Calvin's theology, the lost will never be saved if it's true that God has already predetermined whom He was going to save and whom He was not going to save. Such teaching deviates from the Grace of God and Salvation through Faith in Christ which is offered to all mankind to decide. Believing otherwise negates God's Will and desire that all mankind should come to repentance and it also negates the power of God's Holy Spirit to present Truth to unbelievers and those caught up in misleading theology claiming to be a "Christian faith".

There are many scoffers and Atheists presently in this world but God is very patient and willing to give them the chance to reconsider their own fate before they completely reject His Offer to accept Salvation through Faith in Jesus. I am sure you would like to see them saved as well.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

 

[ItalianScallion]

For a description of what Christinity is,
I would refer all to the Apostles creed or the Nicenecreed.

Marie, I have a real problem with some versions of these creeds so, consequently, I'd have trouble using them to describe Christianity.
Only one version gives credit to the Deity Holy Spirit.
Many versions say that Jesus descended into Hell after He died (which is false) and I question the wording that Jesus is the same as the Father -"...one in being with the Father" could indicate Modalism which is not an accurate depiction of the Godhead.
AND I definitely have a problem with "...one baptism for the forgiveness of sins"...
For the record (and to stay on topic) I don't believe in all the teachings of Calvinism. Especially the one about God choosing some to be saved and some to be lost.

 

[foodcritic]

Marie, I have a real problem with some versions of these creeds so, consequently, I'd have trouble using them to describe Christianity.
Only one version gives credit to the Deity Holy Spirit.
Many versions say that Jesus descended into Hell after He died (which is false) and I question the wording that Jesus is the same as the Father -"...one in being with the Father" could indicate Modalism which is not an accurate depiction of the Godhead.
AND I definitely have a problem with "...one baptism for the forgiveness of sins"...
For the record (and to stay on topic) I don't believe in all the teachings of Calvinism. Especially the one about God choosing some to be saved and some to be lost.

I think most of us (Christians) will find we are part Calvin part Armenian.

 

[Marie]

Ok, Spurgeon was a pseudo Calvinist, but to call Calvinism an occult, or to compare it to Islam is disingenuous, as it’s totally within the bounds of Orthodox Christianity. Islam is nowhere close. Calvinism is also the backbone of Christianity as most of all the mainline denominations are Calvinistic. Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and a lot of Bible churches whether they teach it or not. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
That’s my point. To call Calvinism un-Christian is a false statement and no valid site whether they disagree with the doctrines would say something so ridiculous<o></o>
<o></o>
Like I told Starman I greatly appreciate both you guys Ministry, put to post something like that and than to try to affirm it, calling it an occult, just but a huge whole in his creditability.<o></o>

Also its not profitable to have this discussion here as its devisive and is counter productive to the Gospel.
I agree Modelism is Hersey.

Basically Starman called John Macarthur, Alistar Begg, James D Kendey., Charles Stanley, John Piper, Paul Washer, Chuck Swidol, Ken Ham and a host of others part of an occult.

 

[Starman3000m]

Ok, Spurgeon was a pseudo Calvinist, but to call Calvinism an occult, or to compare it to Islam is disingenuous, as it’s totally within the bounds of Orthodox Christianity. Islam is nowhere close. Calvinism is also the backbone of Christianity as most of all the mainline denominations are Calvinistic. Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and a lot of Bible churches whether they teach it or not. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
That’s my point. To call Calvinism un-Christian is a false statement and no valid site whether they disagree with the doctrines would say something so ridiculous<o></o>
<o></o>
Like I told Starman I greatly appreciate both you guys Ministry, put to post something like that and than to try to affirm it, calling it an occult, just but a huge whole in his creditability.<o></o>

Also its not profitable to have this discussion here as its devisive and is counter productive to the Gospel.
I agree Modelism is Hersey.

Basically Starman called John Macarthur, Alistar Begg, James D Kendey., Charles Stanley, John Piper, Paul Washer, Chuck Swidol, Ken Ham and a host of others part of an occult.

Hi Marie,

The accurate term you are making reference to in your comment should be "cult" not occult. There is a difference. Also, please note that I did not call Calvinism a "cult" only stated that Calvin's belief of Salvation of mankind by predestined election and not by God's Offer of Grace is not exactly in line with what the Holy Bible teaches.

However, the comparison was made to indicate that Islam also has its belief of predestination of souls as pointed out by the cited examples at the Internet site that was posted. In Islam, it is Al'lah and an angel that confer prior to a person being born and then deciding whether the soul of an individual is going to be a denizen (citizen) of the Islamic paradise or whether that individual will be a denizen of the "hellfire". In the final analysis, the belief of Predestination of souls by any interpretation is still Predestination of souls regardless of what religion teaches it. It is still saying that some are chosen from the start to receive salvation while others are chosen from the start to not receive salvation.

While all the ministers you have mentioned may be good teachers and educated in Bible seminaries, there is still a problem if they all agree that God has set aside a group of people to save and a group of people to cast off to hell. That is not Salvation by Grace as taught in the Holy Bible; it is Salvation by election as taught by Calvinist theology and adhered to by those who believe John Calvin's interpretation.

It is actually better to have this be out in the open as an honest and sincere discussion. The point I believe is that God does in fact allow mankind free-will choice but He knows what the ultimate decision will be when the time comes that we are face to face with the Holy Spirit who is sent to reveal God's Plan of Salvation to a corrupt and dying world:

The contention being made is that God did not purposefully predestine individuals into two groups: One group to be saved and the other group to be lost - as believed by Calvinist teaching.

The Bible teaches that all mankind is of one sinful group - Unbelievers and fallen from God's Grace through Adamic sin and rebellion against God - blinded by Satan through religious and secular/atheistic deceptions.

God foreknows who from the group of unbelievers will respond to His Call and be directed to Salvation in Christ and who from that group will choose the ways of the world and reject God's Plan of Salvation.

People make a free-will choice to choose repentance and seek a life with God through Christ or choose to follow other religious paths in an attempt to try to earn Salvation. Still others choose to reject anything to do with God and follow the ways of the world, desiring to live their life without God. Individual choice!

John Chapter 3, verses:

16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Ok, Spurgeon was a pseudo Calvinist, but to call Calvinism an occult, or to compare it to Islam is disingenuous, as it’s totally within the bounds of Orthodox Christianity. Islam is nowhere close. Calvinism is also the backbone of Christianity as most of all the mainline denominations are Calvinistic. Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and a lot of Bible churches whether they teach it or not.
That’s my point. To call Calvinism un-Christian is a false statement and no valid site whether they disagree with the doctrines would say something so ridiculous.
Like I told Starman I greatly appreciate both you guys Ministry, put to post something like that and than to try to affirm it, calling it an occult, just but a huge whole in his creditability.
Also its not profitable to have this discussion here as its devisive and is counter productive to the Gospel.
I agree Modelism is Hersey.
Basically Starman called John Macarthur, Alistar Begg, James D Kendey., Charles Stanley, John Piper, Paul Washer, Chuck Swidol, Ken Ham and a host of others part of an occult.

Whoa sweetheart; to whom are you speaking? If to me, where did I say that all Calvinism is false and "occultic"? Where did I compare it to a cult? I said that I have disagreements with the Apostles Creed and I said it bordered on teaching Modalism. I also said that I do not agree with "all the teachings of Calvinism" mainly because I only know some of them. The major point that I disagree with is the one that this thread is about. I wholly believe in predestination as described in Romans 8 v 29 & 30 but not the predestination described by Calvin.
And, I think we should have this discussion openly. I see no divisiveness in it because it is being done openly for the benefit of others to read about. Truth has to be said no matter who it hurts.
And where did Starman say that Charles Stanley is part of a cult? I can surely attest to the fact that he is not. I've listened to him for the last 20 years and have met and spoke with him in person and on the phone.

1) In the final analysis, the belief of Predestination of souls by any interpretation is still Predestination of souls regardless of what religion teaches it. It is still saying that some are chosen from the start to receive salvation while others are chosen from the start to not receive salvation.
2) God foreknows who from the group of unbelievers will respond to His Call and be directed to Salvation in Christ and who from that group will choose the ways of the world and reject God's Plan of Salvation.

1) This is the part of Calvinism that I don't agree with. You and I both know that we are predestined by God but not in the way that Calvin taught.
God predestined us but, as you said, He did NOT choose some to be saved and some not to.
2) And yes, predestination is God foreknowing those who would accept Him
and so He "orchestrates" their lives in such a way that nothing will happen to them that would prevent HIS will from being done through them. It doesn't mean that God chose them to be saved but didn't want the others to be saved as Calvinism teaches and it doesn't mean that we have no free will as Nucklesack teaches...
I came very close to losing my life 4 times BEFORE I was saved and thank God He prevented it... Yes, I'm all for predestination because it sure saved my life.

 

[Marie]

Two Views of Regeneration

See attached.

Monergism: In theology, The doctrine that the Holy Spirit is the only efficient agent in regeneration - that the human will possesses no inclination to holiness until regenerated, and therefore cannot cooperate in regeneration. God quickens us through the outward call cast forth by the preaching of His Word, disarms our innate hostility, removes our blindness, illumines our mind, creates understanding, turns our heart of stone to a heart of flesh. Only then do we see the beauty and excellency of Christ.

 

[Marie]

Church History

Is Augustine to Blame for Calvins beliefs?

The sin of Adam has not injured the body only, but also the soul of man.​

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The sin of Adam has brought sin and death upon all mankind. ​

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Grace is not merely bestowed when we pray for it, but grace itself causes us to pray for it. ​

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Even the beginning of faith, the disposition to believe, is effected by grace. ​

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All good thoughts and works are God.s gifts. ​

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Even the regenerate and the saints need continually the divine help. ​

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What God loves in us, is not our merit, but his own gift. ​

• All good that we possess is God.s gift, and therefore no one should boast.[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold] Sounds alot like EPH 2;8-9
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[Starman3000m]

Is Augustine to Blame for Calvins beliefs?

The sin of Adam has not injured the body only, but also the soul of man.​

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​

​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold] ​

[/FONT][/FONT]

•​

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The sin of Adam has brought sin and death upon all mankind. ​

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Grace is not merely bestowed when we pray for it, but grace itself causes us to pray for it. ​

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Even the beginning of faith, the disposition to believe, is effected by grace. ​

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All good thoughts and works are God.s gifts. ​

•​

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Even the regenerate and the saints need continually the divine help. ​

•​

​

​

​

What God loves in us, is not our merit, but his own gift. ​

• All good that we possess is God.s gift, and therefore no one should boast.[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold] Sounds alot like EPH 2;8-9
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The question is: Does God choose to reveal His Grace only to some and not to others?

 

[Marie]

God chose Noah<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
God chose Abraham and gave him the faith to be obedient. (Both Grace And Faith are Gifts from God)<o></o>
God chose <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Israel</st1lace></st1:country-region> to be his people over all the other nations.<o></o>
God chose Mosses to lead his people.<o></o>
God chose to harden Pharaoh!<o></o>
Jesus/God chose the 12 Apostles<o></o>
God Chose Mary<o></o>
<o></o>
You mentioned Gods Attributes<o></o>
God is Just but he's not fair, fair is man interpretation of justice.<o></o>
<o></o>
The Bible is full of verses on election used in context.<o></o>
You also mentioned God wills all to be saved, and he does, but again its only one of his two wills.<o></o>
<o></o>
Here’s where we differ, God is Gracious to spare those he does, not because of anything in us, we all are law breakers and all deserve death. There’s no reason in the world any of us should be spared but God is gracious.<o></o>
<o></o>
Someone who hates God and is a son of Satan and loves his sin is not going to come to Christ. He cant he's dead in sin and this is all foolishness to him. That doesn’t mean that God won’t call them latter in their life.<o></o>
<o></o>
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Not All)<o></o>
<o></o>
<SUP>11</SUP>(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth <o></o>
<SUP id=en-KJV-28168>12</SUP>It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. <o></o>
<SUP id=en-KJV-28169>13</SUP>As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. <o></o>
<SUP id=en-KJV-28170>14</SUP>What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. <o></o>
<SUP id=en-KJV-28171>15</SUP>For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. <o></o>
<SUP id=en-KJV-28172>16</SUP>So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.<o></o>
<o></o>
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.<o></o>
<o></o>
All does not always mean all, or the world the entire world as in John 3:16 but more of a representation from every tribe and nation, but not everyone individual. The Jews when referred to in Romans, that in the end when God makes good on his covenant to them when the last of the Gentile number is fulfilled doesn’t mean every single Jew.<o></o>
<o></o>
To reduce God to making decision based on foreknowledge makes God small. He dosent need a plan B<o></o>
<o></o>
It helps to know the Ordo Salutis<o></o>
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/<o></o>

Suggested reading in romans
Romans 9:14-24 - The Potter and the Clay


God's Purpose According To Election: Paul's Argument in Romans 9 <NOBR>by Steven M. Baugh</NOBR>

God's Purpose According To Election: Paul's Argument in Romans 9

For anyone reading this No one knows whos not saved whether he's elect as God is very patient and that effectual call could be 20 minutes long or a life time. Anyone truely seeking forgiveness of his sin would not feel that way unless God was already working in your life. We are also all called to share the Gospel as we have no idea Who God is working on or whether God is using us. Some plant some water and some sow. No matter who's right in this debate, which I certainly dont plan to win, or solve for someone else there is a lot to it, and it wont keep anyone from going to heaven. Not repenting and putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord is the only thing that would keep anyone from it.

 

[Marie]

"Whoa sweetheart; to whom are you speaking?"

Starman

"And, I think we should have this discussion openly. I see no divisiveness in it because it is being done openly for the benefit of others to read about."

If you have those that cant digest milk, do you really want to shove meat down their throat? Most dont care, if you had a group that really did then it would be differnt.

"And where did Starman say that Charles Stanley is part of a cult?"

All the pastors I listed are Calvinist and belong to denominations that embrace it. Stanleys a Baptist
He accused Calvinism as being an occult


"It doesn't mean that God chose them to be saved but didn't want the others to be saved as Calvinism teaches"

Thats actually Double predestination or Hyper Calvinism!
Although some Calvinist say that its just the logical conclusion. The Westminister confession takes that path.

"and it doesn't mean that we have no free will as Nucklesack teaches.."

Correct we do have free will. I take it you refering to Irrestable Grace Calvinism teaches that if God is supernaturally working in your life you desire to follow him so in that case he's not prerventing you from rejecting him but since your will is in perfect alignment you wouldnt want to.


Free Will
. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]


God's Eternal Decree

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]
IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]
VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[17]
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]

The blue #'s are links to Refrenced scriptures

 

[Starman3000m]

Not repenting and putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord is the only thing that would keep anyone from it.

That's the main Message to share.
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
John 11:25-27

 

[Zguy28]

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Sorry to get into this so late, but you are taking that passage out of context. It is clear who Peter is speaking to here. The Elect, not all mankind.

That doesn't prove Reformed theology is correct however and is not my intent. I just really hate it when folks use that verse to prove Arminianism.

 

[Starman3000m]

Sorry to get into this so late, but you are taking that passage out of context. It is clear who Peter is speaking to here. The Elect, not all mankind.

That doesn't prove Reformed theology is correct however and is not my intent. I just really hate it when folks use that verse to prove Arminianism.

Hmmm..so what you are saying is that you believe God is willing that some people will perish?

 

[Zguy28]

Hmmm..so what you are saying is that you believe God is willing that some people will perish?

Not at all. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

What I am saying is that Peter is speaking to the church and saying that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, so be patient.

Election is undeniably a biblical doctrine. How election works, whether it is totally predestined or merely foreknowledge, is up for debate.

 

[Starman3000m]

Not at all. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

What I am saying is that Peter is speaking to the church and saying that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, so be patient.

Election is undeniably a biblical doctrine. How election works, whether it is totally predestined or merely foreknowledge, is up for debate.

OK - but remember that the Bible specifically states that those who sincerely trust in Jesus through being born-again are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of Redemption. The truly Saved are secure as Jesus states that no man can pluck us from His hand or His Father's hand. This does not give us the liberty to continue or think we can continue living in worldly things as before the time we are saved. Rather, we are to allow the Holy Spirit of Promise to guide our lives each and every day and to walk in the Spirit each and every day. Will we slip up? Occasionally, but the Holy Spirit will prod our spirit and inner conscious to keep us on track abiding in the Spirit. Trusting Jesus' words of Salvation should leave no doubt as it is the Holy Spirit that witnesses to our spirit that we are the Children of God. God gives us an assurance of Salvation and one should be able to know whether his/her relationship with God is genuine or not.

Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulations but to be of good cheer, he has overcome the world. It is this complete faith and trust in Jesus that should help us realize that God will not let any of His Children perish.